Speakers vs Monitors for audio/music listening, not production. What's better?

I am looking at replacing a 5+ year old Creative 5.1 speaker setup because of some issues with the way it inputs to my Macbook Pro. Basically they're attached via a Griffin Firewave which is attached via Firewire. When the Firewire bus is under a heavy load (for example when I'm scanning batches of 12 35mm slides at once) then the audio begins to crackle/stutter...

I have done some reading and been to Derringers to check out some Event ALP-5's, which are within my budget. Of course listening to them in the basement there they sound great compared to anything I am used to.

One point that I have been made aware of is how "monitors" which are designed for more "professional" type of audio setups generally produce a "cleaner" sound, which is less "warm". I put all these words in quotes because I guess they're all a bit subjective...

I've also been told that for long stretches of listening at once, monitors might be a bit to harsh on the ears, and the warmer sound produced by reasonable to high quality standard PC speakers might be easier on the ears. When I say longer stretches I mean when sitting at a PC for 3+ hours at a time, and often over 6 hours in a day.

Note that this is just for music listening. I don't do any production/mixing or anything that requires what I am hearing to sound as close as possible to what it would sound like in a club...

I am not really concerned about the value of speakers dropping or other factors at this stage. I intend to keep whatever I buy for a long period (current speakers have lasted me 5 computer upgrades/replacements).

So, what do you reckon? Monitors or standard PC speakers?

Neither. I would get a 2ch amp amd a set of bookshelf hifi speakers. Roost and I going to suss out http://www.adelaidespeakers.com/ in the coming weeks, as we are both keen on the DIY kits on offer. Those speakers have an excellent reputation, and are apparently comparable to much more expensive brands (VAF research etc). The reason he is so much cheaper is he operates out of his lounge room, hence no overheads. When we go and listen to them in a few weeks I'll let you know how they sound.

As for an amp if you want to save some $$ i'd recommend a second hand amp, it should be relatively easy to find a nice denon 2 channel or something that'd blow the pants off any PC speakers. (EDIT: SQ wise)

Isn't it kind of overkill getting an amp when I just want to listen in a small room and not at any high volume anyway? Is there some quality disadvantage in having pre-amped speakers or something?

I should mention that I don't really want to have to get an amp because it takes up too much space...

Not really, its just a space thing. IMO you pay a lot more for active speakers for sound quality comparable to standalone amps/speakers. A setup with the bookshelf speakers on that site would have a similar output to a pair of monitors anyway.

You sure about the price comment? Amp and two speakers for $500 or so doesn't look very likely. Most amps I have seen go for at least that much alone. To be honest I don't really want to buy anything second hand. In fact I don't mind paying a bit of a premium for something new.

100% sure. I haven't heard those harmon kardon speakers before, but I am yet to hear any system with 1" full range drivers that has comparable sound quality to any 'traditional' setup of the same money, even if it's just some mini system from a department store. If you were to consider second hand, at least for an amp, you could build a system for $500 that would sound so much better than a set of PC speakers, there would be no point even comparing the two.

I agree with everything bezz said.

Reasonable to high quality pc speakers? Fuck those off. And don't get monitors either. If you just wanna listen and you want it to sound great get something that's made for the job. Computer manufacturers and "speakers for computers" manufacturers don't make good speakers. Home audio/theatre speaker manufacturers make good speakers.

I would say get a small (relatively) low powered amp and a couple of nice bookshelf speakers just as Bezz said. I have to recommend these: http://www.klipsch.com/ as that is what I have had for years (they sound great). Lets just say though that I am VERY keen to hear the ones roost is going to get, by all rights they should sound sensational, and at a fantastic price for that level of quality. If they live up to what I've read about them, they are sure to be my next purchase in this area.

As with anything it's about how much you wanna spend and what you want out of it. Don't go spending too much money on a "high end" computer speaker setup though imo. If you just want some half decent speakers to listen to music on at the right price, get some mid range computer speakers by all means. If you want to go further than that, then get the product that is made for the job.

bezz sorry I maybe was misunderstood... I meant comparing quality between two pre-amped speakers like the Event ALP-5's or a second hand amp and some cheaper amp-requiring speakers...

Leezee, I suspected I'd get a response like that (an anti-PC speaker response that is) here and that is understandable! Seems there is nowhere in Adelaide that sells Klipsch speakers. They only have one outlet in NSW going by their website...

I don't want to disregard your advice regarding an amp guys but I have enough shit on my desk so I am almost 100% set on pre-amped speakers...

In that case then yes you will get a lot more for your money if you go for an amp and a set of speakers.

Can you explain how it is better though? I mean the quality difference between PC Speakers and Monitors seems like something widely understood and agreed upon but I am trying to understand how I'll get "more for my money" going down the amp+speakers route...

Truscott in the city sell klipsch.

You're simply paying more for it all to be integrated. For example in an integrated system, space would have to be taken into consideration when designing the amplifier, driving up the cost. To compromise the manufacturer might use lower quality drivers or crossovers. With standalone components there is no need to compromise.

Yeah OK, fair enough. But as a customer I need to take space into consideration as well!

I might go to Truscott and have a look what they've got (thanks P.A.S.) on offer.

Just chucked a quick search and came up with these:

http://www.digitalhome.com.au/Hifi_And_Home_Audio/Pioneer/A109_Stereo_Amplifier/20760
Pioneer A109 40w stereo amp, $349. Could easily get it cheaper come sale time or if you are a good haggler.

That amp would pair nicely with a set of these:
http://www.adelaidespeakers.com/bookshelf-speakers-firesprite.html
Firesprite 502s1, $180/pr
or
Firesprite 402s, $290/pr, or $170 kit

There's plenty available out there, I guess it's just not as popular anymore as the ipod generation are more concerned with looks or size rather than sound quality.

crazy talk! If you want it to fit you can make it fit!

Cool, fair enough. Thanks for the links.

I wouldn't call myself an ipod generation member... Don't have any portable MP3 player at all and I generally try and get hold of FLACs over MP3s these days.


Well.... Maybe .... *looking behind monitor*

haha wasnt refering to you man, i work in electronics retail and its crazy how many people will spend up big on an ipod dock that sounds terrible just because its pink or something. Call me old fashioned but i thought stereos were more about the quality of sound? 

edit: lol @ that emoticon being called 'funkyj'

Hehe cool.

Would be keen to hear your feedback on that Adelaide Speaker set up cause the examples you gave look like a decent option. I can hold off for a bit so I might just wait for your report.

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php?t=5913&page=3
Here's a page with some reviews of them, not the same model but you get the idea.

if space is an issue and you want to keep the price down these

http://bose.com.au/site/index.aspx?path=products&CTRL=PG&pfid=9&pgid=106

are pretty good really.  in a sense i'm all for the bookshelfs but space is an issue, even if to some it's a very small one

i should think i could get some for you for no more than 330 if you wanted to go that way

in a way i'm all for bookshelfs but dubious you could get something better than ^^ for under 500 and pretty sure you couldn't for 300 new... let me know if you want to have a listen to the companions

Ah sorry I should have mentioned I don't want a separate sub either. Not necessarily looking for something "under 500" either, but just around that figure.

the opposite can also be true... if correctly designed/engineered as a 'system' using well suited, matched components can provide a lot of advantages.  true, the likes of creative and other even dodgier 'computer' brands don't usually do this but you certainly can't just say 'components are better' in all cases

it needs less space than that amp

True not in all cases, i guess it just depends on how well you can design your own system, and how much you are willing to spend on it.

Well from what I gathered from my visit to the city Derringers the Forrestville store has a lot more gear sitting about. I might try and get over there as well to see what they have on offer.

You should check out Grenfell Hi-Fi. Just out of interest because they have some great stuff there. Might be just a little out of the price range though.

good shit though

my entire set up, stereo, PC & decks runs through a NAD amp ($6-700) and a couple of B&W speakers ($900)
fuck it sounds fine though not sure how it would stand up being used for production monitoring.

Yeah you don't really want your sound running through too many things when monitoring, because it is just adding more details to the sound.

admittedly its all

decks >>  \
comp >>  - Amp>> - Speakers <<< BAM!
stereo >> /

so theyre all direct to the amp

Noted, thanks. I will check them out anyway... I really can't justify spending a huge amount but at the same time I'm not in a rush so don't mind doing lots of looking around first.

Yeah I'm pretty sure for a basic setup from Grenfell you're looking in the 1000's of dollars. Amazing sound though.

 


... but I want to go back to Europe in the next 9-12 months!!!

By the way I thought it worth mentioning again that by far most of the listening I am doing is MP3s, which obviously are a compressed format where the sound quality is not what anyone could call "perfect". That's another reason I can't justify some super expensive system - I simply won't be pushing the best quality signal into it most of the time so it's not worth it.

Would monitors bring out imperfections in compressed audio formats more obviously? Because they're producing a more accurate sound? If so is this something that could be annoying to the ears after extended listening?

Nobody has really responded to my comment/question about whether monitors can be harsher on the ears for long listening periods either. Is this something anyone can answer?

I think they can be harsher on the ear from my experience, as they tend to show a more 'raw' side of the sound. I know from spending countless hours in a studio that you can come out feeling like shit (headache, sore ears etc.) I'm not sure if this relates to all monitors though.

My mate just bought some B & W i think 805's from the US(not produced anymore anyway). They'll be used as monitors, he records bands.

From my albeit limited experience with monitor setups (only monitors I've had a real decent listen to are roost's Alesis set), I have found they are a lot more 'sterile' or 'dry' than other speakers. I've never got a headache from them, its just a slightly different sound.

I tend to get more headaches from harsh highs from shit tweeters, terribly leveled tracks or poorly eq'd setups.

So from my experience, I wouldn't necessarily call them 'harsher' just different.

As for compressed files, the better setup you have, the more imperfections will come out. This doesn't only apply to monitors tho. I guess you might notice it slightly more... In conclusion, FLAC ftw!

personally i dislike any mp3 and desperately try to not listen to one with a bitrate of less than 192...the fact that the compression format throws away sound and allows for mass distortion makes it hard for me to believe that mp3s are actually sold...

anyways.. monitor speakers are designed to play back audio exactly the way it was recorded. so they show up the distortion in mp3s better than anything. many cheap home stereo setups are eq'd to boost low and high frequencies whereas monitors try to have as flat as frequncy response as possible

true!

Hmm... I'm getting the general feeling I should be getting something from a Hi-Fi place and not 'monitors' from a pro audio shop.

As a listener only, a warmer sound that is more pleasing to the ears, but not as accurate, and not making the compression artefacts/disadvantages of lossy audio formats so obvious seems like a better option at the moment. I definitely don't want to go and buy monitors then find that after 6 hours (or more... I spend way to much time at a computer) of listening that I have a headache. That's exactly the opposite effect I want music to have!

Edit: Had a chat to the guy from Adelaide Speakers. Definitely going to go and check out his offers. He recommended the Firesprite 502s2 bookshelves after I explained my situation. He doesn't sell the 502s1 anymore. Looks like I'll have to get an amp after all. Might go get the Pioneer bezz recommended.

i would be inclined to spend a bit more on the amp if you're gonna go that route... what does the dude recommend in terms of power for those speakers? (if you're sold on them)... i'll try to recommend something

if anyones looking at ANYTHING from grenfell pm me

OK well I have gone and purchased a Sherwood amp. It's more than powerful enough for the speakers I've ordered as well (in fact if I push the speakers with this amp I'll probably damage them from the explanation I got). I went and saw the guy who runs Adelaide Speakers today at his workshop (which is pretty impressive in terms of the amount of gear he has lying about the place by the way). Going by his descriptions it sounds like he knows his stuff very well - he's been in the business as long as I've been alive from what I could gather.

I've gone and ordered a speaker based on the Firesprite 502s2 listed on this page, except that mine will have a significantly higher quality woofer which brings the price up a bit to about $490 for the pair. I was going to get some of the Firefox ones but when I saw the physical size of the cabinets required to fit the larger woofers it became more obvious that it wasn't the kind of thing I want sitting on my desk.

As I mentioned this is not for listening at high volume and the speakers are going to be literally 1 metre away from my head 95% of the time. I explained this to him and it seems like getting anything bigger (in terms of power) than what I've ordered would be a waste. Better to get a smaller better quality set up than a more powerful one that isn't ever going to be used at higher volume anyway.

So in conclusion I've ended up spending more than originally anticipated, but when I look at what other people (family) have bought with Hi-Fi equipment I realised it's OK to spend a bit more now because it's likely I'll still own any good stuff in a few decades.

Thanks for all the advice guys. Will post again in 2 to 3 weeks when I get the speakers together to let you know what I think of it. I am pretty confident I'll be impressed!

sounds awesome man, cant wait to hear your review on the setup

I'm extremely jealous Oli, I think you've made some great choices.

Good choice Oli, bezz and i are off the see Edward in a week or two.  Will be good to hear your opinions once everything is up and running. 

Tomorrow.

Well... After a very impressive test listening at Edward's workshop this morning I have just finished setting up my speaker system at home. They sound bloody amazing. I could hardly believe the sound coming out of these little speakers (compared to some of the other ones he had sitting around) when I listened to them at first!

Now my real danger is an attempt to replace all my MP3s with FLACs... There goes my storage system...

its all good man hard drives are cheap now!

It's not the price of them that's the problem. It's cause I've seen so many fail that I buy double and put them into complicated (but more redundant and safer) array systems. I've already got two servers sitting under my desk. Each has about a dozen drives in it. I don't have physical room for many more.

I am slowly trying to get rid of anything under 320GB, then 500... and so on.

dual distributed parity ftw

dual distributed? What's that mean. :o

uses 2 drives for parity so the array can tolerate two hard drive failures (raid 6)

i got an exam on raid, caching and pipelining on tues   

RAID6 might make sense if you've got 6 to 10 drives but otherwise I think it's not worth it (in terms of disk space lost for redundancy). I prefer to keep my arrays down to 4 drives maximum...

I need to replace a controller before I do anything other than RAID1. A controller error killed a RAID5 array recently cause it reported two drive failures. Had everything important backed up but it was still a pain in the ass.

By the way bezz I hope you are learning about how powerful mdadm/Linux software RAID has become...

Back on topic:

I can't believe how much more pleasant these are for music listening! I should have upgraded years ago. Would highly recommend Adelaide speakers to anyone by the way.

cheers oli, still havent made it for a look yet... very keen for some more speakers

One thing I noticed which sounds far better is live recordings. For example I have some old (as in from 60s and 70s) recordings of Miles Davis shows and I used to not really like listening to them because the applause sounded 'wrong', and the acoustics just 'didn't work' (hard to define this any more clearly but oh well!).

I can appreciate that there would be a quality difference between a studio and a live recording, but the way live recordings sound now is a lot better and I really enjoy listening to them!

Ditto!