Patriotism: What does it mean to be 'Australian'?

I have been reading the 'Apology' thread with interest, and whilst I chortled to myself at some of you bleeding heart liberals, I noticed that many of you were making comments like 'I feel proud to be an Australian today' and 'I feel more Australian under Kevin07 than I did under Howard' (naturally, I am paraphrasing).

Anyway, it got me thinking - what does it mean to be 'Australian' in 2008? What part of your Australian identity resonates with our current leadership? Why does Kevin07 inspire some of you to feel more 'Australian' now than say 6 months ago under the old Coalition leadership.

It's almost as if some have found 'patriotism' (is that like finding religion?) because of Kevin07 and his signing of the Kyoto protocol and his apology to the Indigenous Communities of Australia.

Are we patriotic because of our elected leadership? Are we patriotic because we are proud of our country, no matter what wrongs have happened in the past, and what leadership is taking us forward. Are we patriotic because we believe in a multicultural society, or are we patriotic because 'Australia belongs to Australians'?

I don't feel any more or any less 'Australian' today than I did when I woke up yesterday. I have always been proud of our country and all that is has achieved, and I am proud to be an Australian, rights and wrongs of the past included. Does that make me a patriot, or does that make me one-eyed, ignorant and ill-informed? I guess it might all come down to perspective...

What does it mean to you to be 'Australian' in 2008? Discuss.

I am all for patriotism, in small doses. Oscar wilde said... Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. False patriotism sucks ass, when people use god or country or whatever as a motive/excuse for their behavious. As Johnson says... Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Fair question there, tho! for me, being an aussie means being tolerant, being open minded, being happy to sit outside in the sun and then whinge about sunburn! But i think i am a very proud aussie today cause for once in my ten years of voting, i feel like i have been represented by my government. and sir, THAT is democracy

Interesting.

So what if, for the sake of argument, I don't feel like I am being represented by the Government of today, and would prefer to be represented by the previous Government. Am I less of a patriot? (And I don't necessarily refer to Kevin07's actions today, I mean it more in generalities of Government as a whole).

Actually, it's a redundant questions really. To quote the comic genius of Homer Simpson, 'If you don't like it, go to Russia!'

Must admit, the "Haven't felt proud to be Australian in years til today" sentiment baffles me

I wouldnt say u are less of a patriot, if u dont like this government. None of us have ever said we were unhappy with being Australian, but when you feel like u are not being represented, or even within a minority group, then its harder to say u are a "proud patriot".

Like I said before, 'patriotism' is a shitty concept. It leads to too many superiority complexes. And wearing flags as capes!

Care to elaborate, Steve?

Could it be that some people have felt no sense of patriotic identity under 11 years of Coaliation leadership?

Could it be possible that some people's patriotic sensibilities are directly linked to the actions of our leaders?

Could it be that some people don't really care either way, as long as the Aussies win at Cricket and Swimming (the dizzying height of Australian patriotism?)

could be

I know no one has said they are 'unhappy' about being Australian (our brown land, bright sun and democracy is the envy of the world - if only we had elected the right officials instead of that retard Wayne Swan!), but I definitely sensed some members feeling prouder to be Australian because of today's actions by the elected Government.

Do people really equate patriotism with the level of their representation? I am not being represented, yet I still feel patriotic. I would defend Australia if attacked, and I make sure I dispose of my rubbish thoughtfully (KESAB FTW).

I appreciate your succinctness 

i dont love a sunburnt country. i dont love a sunburnt anything. sunburn is fucking painful!



being an australian means i come from australia to me, thats about it. oh and that i like vegemite. mmm vegemite. and tim tams. and bbqs in summer.

im happy to be from australia. if i was in america i probably would have been shot while i was in high school. if i was in some other country i may have been subject to famine/war/something else as equally as horrible.

im not huge into cricket, swimming or australian rules so i find it hard to get excited about it. i mean its cool when we win - yay - go team! but im not really interested in sitting front row dressed in green and gold jumping up and down cos we are in front.

I feel no more or less patriotic because of what Kevin07 did today.

I am proud of the country I was born in, I am proud to live here, I am proud of what a great nation we live in, the opportunities we have and most of the laws and policies we live by. I am proud to be able to say and do (within reason) whatever I want without being locked up. I am also proud to have the freedom to believe in whatever I want, and for other people to have this same freedom without having a holy war(amway salesmen dont count).

I am glad however that someone in power has had the balls to stand up in front of the rest of the country and acknowledge and apologise for what the government at the time did to the Aboriginals. Saying "sorry" in my opinion does not mean that these people deserve any more pay outs or programs than are currently available to them.

We all have to work hard to get where we want, what happened to these people was disgusting however the hand outs and extra opportunities they have been given over the years in my opinion more than make up for it.

That said some training or guidance on how to use these benefits rather than just handing them out willy nilly would have gone a long way.

Let's not turn this topic into an argument about whether the Apology was the right thing to do or not, that's what the other thread is for.

This topic is about patriotism, and what makes a person 'feel Australian'.

The fact I can wear a cardigan to the office and cop a proper slagging from the lads at work means I am Australian. Sleding makes me feel like a patriot.

me too.
agree with this.

god it's a bit hard to narrow down just why your proud to be an australian in a few short sentences.

will have to think and get back to this.

I don't know if I've ever felt patriotic... I love living in Australia and I feel Australian because I've lived here my whole life... I don't associate the government with Australia the place, so I can feel ashamed of a government without it affecting my love of Australia.

The reason I didn't feel proud to be an Australian under Howard is so much bullshit went on - two that spring to mind are AWB and the handling of Pvt Kovoko - and not one Minister stood up and took responsibility.

I could go on and on at how at every turn the Howard government shifted blame. Even in losing, the major players stepped aside and let Brendan Nelson be the fall guy. I really hope the Labor government doesn't fall into the same trap, but so far they're 1 for 1. (Bipartisan approach to aboriginal issue = good sign, blaming inflation on previous government = bad sign)

EDIT: To me, to be proud of someone, they've got to be prepared to stand up and tackle problems and accept responsibility. And Australia's leaders just didn't do that.

But furthermore, the so-called culture wars, waged by the mass media and backed by the government and private sector - criticising anything that was even slightly different to their world view and fuelled by anonymous posters on the internet.

As a nation we became so fucking conservative that we locked up some comedians on no charges, just because they happened to be in the same place as the Prime Minister.

Our sense of identity as a nation struggled. What happened to our sense and celebration of larrikinism? It's something that defined what it is to be Australian, but it has been crushed by a ruthless conservative media backed by a ruthless conservative government.

What happened to our films and music? Instead of Midnight Oil and the Castle we get Australian Idol and Rabbit Proof Fence...

By going against that conservatism, not only with the Apology but by signing Kyoto, hopefully signals an end to the culture wars and a return to celebrating the quirky and quaint - what Australia is really about (to me at any rate).

Regarding Australian Patriotism, I have a great deal of pride in the Activities of the Australian Armed Forces. Particularly in WWI and WWII.

The efforts of many of our heroes raised the profile of Australia significantly in the international community (discounting some of our more recent involvements).

I am surprised u didnt include Vietnam! Considering the treatment the Armed Forces received after their term of duty in Vietnam, Australia seems especially  unapologetic about its involvement in Vietnam, and there is a lot of ignorance about how well Australia was represented there by its forces.

Apparently Australian troops had the most successes, the lowest kill rate and managed to gain a lot of respect.  But I think you raise a good point, I am very proud of most past political decisions and involvements, considering the pressures at the time. I still had the word patriotism, would rather it be used sparingly! I dont think patriotic necessarily = proud.

OH MY GOD

i agree with funky J 100%



I was never unhappy to be australian, and would still have rather lived here than most places in the world, i just wasnt proud of it for the last few years. i guess feeling like i was waving good bye to honesty & decency, the 'fair go' and all that sort of (non-financial) stuff i used to associate with 'australianess' meant something more to me than just the fucking economy, appealing to greed and interest rates. it went beyond what actually affected me directly too.

and if anyone wants to think that the negative things happening here in 'lil old australia' werent reported around the world, you'd kidding yourself cos it has tarnished the image of this country. if pauline hanson can make her way on to international news, you think the behaviour of john howard during tampa, AWB etc etc etc didnt make it into the OS news?!

i love living here, but i dislike 'patriotism' for the same reasons as i dislike blind religious faith. it serves no purpose other than closing peoples minds off to reason/understanding and encouraging an 'us and them' mentality...

I would have raised Vietnam but I was concerned about stimulating controversy as opinions were (and perhaps still are) heatedly divided on this 'War'

I think these questions are personal questions at the end of the day. Trying to group people together as more or less 'Australian' based on their answers is never going to help. I think there should be more to it than which way the current government in parliament leans though. It's more about society as a whole and how it reacts (or doesn't) to events that occur.

I'm a bit puzzled about people's comments as well when they say they weren't proud 6 months ago but are not now. I mean there's no doubt that what was said in parliament yesterday was important, but overall the voters who put Rudd in power did so for reasons that affect them more directly than an apology to a group of people who are only about 2% of the population.


Yes you could say it is a bit like finding religion. Religion follows some blurry/imaginary/hard to define/probably non-existent or totally flawed ideas. So does patriotism doesn't it?


I don't know because I'm not really patriotic. I am half German, but because of the way Europe has developed in the last 10 years I almost consider myself more half European half Australian citizen.

When I was at University I often met people in my generation who would say 'I'm quarter this, quarter that, quarter this and quarter Aussie'. Or, I'm half this and half Aussie. I would ask them, "so do you speak those languages?" or "Have you ever lived in that country or anywhere nearby?". Most of the time people would say "No". It's the same thing here. People say they are 'Aussie' or this or that because everyone else does, but don't really think about what it means.

When I say I am half German I say it because I grew up speaking the language (it's my mother language - literally, I spoke German first) and I feel completely at 'Home' there.

By the way I don't consider myself a patriotic German either. Anyone with a solid grasp of European history, or anyone who has been to Europe in the past 50 years will see how rarely mainstream patriotic movements are visible. Why? Because patriotism has led to it's more extreme form (nationalism) too often and caused devastation beyond belief.

I don't have a problem with people here calling themselves patriotic, and I certainly won't try and stop them from being that way because of what I believe. But at the same time I don't want to get hassled about my solid stance of just feeling like a dual citizen with no particularly patriotic leanings at all. Two generations back I've got family on one side who flew Lancaster bombers over Germany on one side, and on the other side I've got family who were uprooted from the German empire as WW2 turned against Germany on the Eastern front.


At the end of the day it appears to me that Australian's seem really confused about what all this 'belonging and being Australian' actually means. I can't even imagine these types of discussions coming up amongst groups of young people who I know in Germany.

Sorry for bringing a European country into this thread so heavily, but I think it's relevant to introduce another perspective.

really? i didn't think there was too much controversy surrounding vietnam these days? except the deplorable welcome they received when the war ended?

oli, u raise some great points. its an interesting debate to have indeed, but when you think about it...a lot of european countries are still dealing with social and political fallout from ww2, and have had to ostracise a lot of demons! especially germany. in a way, those countries have been reborn over the last 50 years, whilst australia is lumbering with 200 years of history which we are still obviously coping to come to terms with!

PLUS, redefining ourselves in the 21st century, with record rates of immigration!

I'm not sure what you are referring to in regards to social and political fall out. The losers in WW2 had their political systems literally flushed down the drain or rebuilt from scratch. The criminals who survived were punished. Aren't you contradicting yourself by saying they are still dealing with fallout and also saying they were reborn?

Anyway you are right that we still aren't coping with our tiny short history...

Considering that 25% of people living here weren't even born here I will acknowledge that this whole question of what it means to be Australian is made far more complex - a proportion like that is unheard of in Europe.

In regards to the 'are we patriotic dependant upon our political representation' stance - of bloody well course!!

If you were American, and went to another country, would you be proud to say to people that you are an American? I sure as fuck wouldn't. The steps taken by Kevin007 so far have made me proud to be an Australian moreso to a more global audience.

Don't get me wrong, I have always been proud to be Aussie, but blemishes on our national identity reflect somewhat on our society as a whole, and that is one side of what being Australian entails. You are able to be a proud Australian because of the Okker things you do, say, believe etc but it also includes the national identity to the global community.

The Americans did a similar thing, as have the Canadians, as have the Germans, as have MANY other countries. I believe that EVERY Australian should be more proud to be an Australian because we finally are not frowned upon because of something that should have been taken care of years ago.

OI! OI! OI!

Bloody oath!

true, sorry that wasn't a well thought out sentence huh! yes, i meant that a lot of countries had to deal with 'fallout' from WW2, but have since had to work really hard to change their national identity, put the past behind them and look to the future! in comparison, we Australians still have a lot of hangups in comparison, I think.

J, love your comment, bring back some pride in our musical and cinematic exports! We're clawing our way back, even in the entertainment industry there is a lot of debate about multiculturalism and race - especially as most of our marketable products feature outdated images of all-white or all-european neighbourhoods etc. There is a really good podcast asking whether the australian entertainment industry really is 'colourblind', can pass it on if you are interested

Thats you though, and your not American. I've been there recently and the majority are still pretty flag wavin  yanks

yeah, but not always outside their country... the amount of backpackers who stick canadian flags on their bags to deflect attention was notable.

hah that's true!

same with kiwis tho, so they dont get mixed up with aussies. actually, most aussies AND kiwis get mistaken for poms when backpacking, must be hard to pick out the accents!

you got it

fair call

patriotism is important to peeps - cos it may form part of their own identity, thus consciousness and psyche.

but patriotism must allow room for diversity within one national identity. for example - im a kiwi-aussie, and at times i feel unwelcomed and alien in my own country; both nz and australia! in light of this, how do our African migrants and refugees feel?!

personally, i think patriotism is becoming more and more irrelevant in our increasingly 'glocal' community. in some time yet to come, our 'national identity' will be something very very different to what we understand of it now.

how do u feel unwelcome?

 

everytime i say 'no tomato sauce' for any food orders.

everytime i say 'im from australia' to a kiwi!

I would imagine they feel rather lucky to be living in Australia, all things being equal.

But that's just me.

im sure they do Rob, but how do they feel about australia's ethos of institutional racism, about facing racism on a daily basis?

I can't even imagine how you could feel more patriotic because of this apology, or because of our current form of government. If you are a true patriot, you love your country and its people, so the simple fact that the government has changed hands and an apology has been made should not affect your patriotic levels in the slightest. If you are a true patriot, you may be happier because of the current government or vice versa, but if anything you should probably be feeling more patriotic if you have a government which you don't believe in, because you will be more willing to try to change the government for what you believe shall be better for the people.

Anyway, am I a patriot? No, not at all in fact, I find I am a fairly indifferent person when it comes to governments, although this is mainly because I don't know which ones would work better for me. I personally I am not a big fan of our government at the moment, and probably never will be. I would much prefer living in some secluded little place where the government wouldn't effect me at all, but I probably should save my political stance for another thread.

What does it mean to be 'Australian'?

To me you are an Australian if you are born and raised in Australia. As simple as that.

Compared to disease, famine, pestilence, oppression and unrelenting waves of violence and bloodshed, I would like to think they would appreciate the opportunity to start a new life in a democratic, civilised, multi-cultural nation such as Australia.

But then again, I live in a fairyland of pupydogs and fluffy white clouds.

so... migrants and refugees arent australian? even when granted full citizenship?

natho - i agree with much you said, and you sound as apolitical as i am - its great to have a birds eye view of the world innit?

then again, you and i both havent walked a day in their shoes....
yes, they are safer here, but the trauma, grief and loss takes time to heal, and this healing process would be hindered if they experience horrible thangs on a daily consistency!

That just made me think of the Soccer World Cup, when Italy beat Australia.

Lots of young Italians out in Adelaide waving Italian flags, denigrating Australia. I found it a little strange, considering most of them were born here. Where does their sense of patriotism for a land they most likely have never been to come from? Their parents? Their friends and family? The Sopranos?

Do their celebrations make them patriots of Italy, and not patriots of Australia?

Are they less Australian because they didn't cheer for Australia to win, or sympathise at Australia's loss?

Or are they true patriots of Australia because they were expressing their democratic right to free speech?

Food for thought.

Better to heal in a place of multiculturalism and safety than die afraid and alone in a place of oppression and violence, wouldn't you say?

An argument can be mounted that at the very least, Australia is better than the alternative, and that a refugee must feel their life is better here than it would be in their country of origin. Else, why would they come here? And, dare I say it, why would we allow them to enter?

Sports are great times because it's when reality is thrown out the window and if it's convenient to be <insert nationality here> then you can be that way... The funny thing is that half of the 'Italian' supporters running around making a big deal of a win probably don't even speak Italian.

Rob regarding the refugees, I think the point snappytom is making that they shouldn't have to face any types of discrimination here at all - regardless of the fact that it's better for them to be in this safe country.

yes! i was about to post that!

i love australia, but i think most ppl are ill-informed by the mass media and previous howard govt., and/or dont care.

i see a better vision for australia, not a utopia - i am fiercely pragmatic and deeply realistic, but i need to be optimistic, more open-minded for my own strength and survival.

try to open your heart up sometime Rob! 

Tried that once.

Wasn't for me.

hence why i added the lol... it wasnt a serious plea. 

I understand the point Alana was trying to make. Doesn't mean it's not going to happen. I get called a 'fag' all the time for wearing pink shirts, but rather than let it send me into a shame spiral, I thank my lucky stars that I don't have it much worse.

Harden the fuck up Australia.

Easy for white Australian males to make comments like 'harden the fuck up'. If you seriously think that is all there is to it then you really need to spend more time with people who have been through genuinely difficult times...

 

If refugees are complaining about how hard they have it here, and how racist Australia is, they are welcome to go back to their country of origin. I won't stand in their way.

I don't think I've ever heard of any refugees complaining about how 'hard they have it here'. My point is that saying people need to 'harden the fuck up' and at the same time saying how great this country is and how comfortable life is makes you look a bit stupid.

The 'HTFU' comment was more tongue-in-cheek than anything else (have you never seen Heath Franklin's 'Chopper'???)

And in response to your comment, according to Alana, a lot of them seem to have an issue with the racial discrimination here.

So are you saying that they never experienced racism within their own community back home?

Are white people the only ones who are racist on this planet?

Who are you asking?


Why are you asking rhetorical questions?

Of course the answer is no. Anybody who thinks otherwise is delusional.

I cant remember who said it.

But someone was saying that the poor diddums have to put up with Racism here and all sorts of other horrible things. Despite the shit that they managed to put up with back home.

Who are you referring to when you use the term 'poor diddums'?

If they put up with certain shit back home does that mean they should automagically just accept having to put up with racism and other horrible things here?

Does it mean that we as hosts should allow racism towards them to continue just because they went through it wherever they came from? I sincerely hope the answer is no, they should not have to put up with it anymore!

Its not a matter of whether they should or shouldn't have to put up with it.

The world is far from perfect there are a lot of bad people out there that want to shoot you down for whatever reason.

You come to a country with amazing opportunities you are, for the most part accepted into the country, this country runs programs for people like yourself to teach you the ways of life, the language, and helps to ease you into your new found home. Yet because some wanker(s) call you names you act as if its the end of the world?

Well as per my earlier post I haven't ever heard of any refugees acting as if it's the end of the world. My point is that in any country there can be improvements, and just because by and large this 'new found home' works out for most immigrants it doesn't mean that we should just ignore the wankers who cause problems for refugees or other new immigrants.

PS. I don't need anyone to teach me the way of life or the language, I was born here so Australia is not my new found home, it's been my home for all of my life.

Back to patriotism...

Drinking wine from SA makes me a patriot.

So does Farmers Union Iced Coffee.

Shit I missed that stuff in Europe!

Oli drinks bogan juice?  Who woulda thunk it.   

what do you mean 'despite'? What about replacing that with 'in spite of'?


Did anyone read that newspaper report last week or the week before about the Ugandan refugee family who moved to Paradise in Adelaide after years of being unrooted, fleeing ethnic/tribal conflict etc etc etc, made their way around the world to get here in order to have a good life to raise their children, and within 2 days one of the locals had stuck a threatening letter in their letter box telling them essentially to fuck off, theyre not welcome there etc etc etc and now the family is scared for their safety.

I mean for fucks sake! These people are liable to be a tad jumpy given the shit theyve endured and now they get some bigotted cunt who's had by world standards a fucking dandy life, slip them that note!

And let it be known that THERE IS FUCK ALL GOVERNMENT SUPPORT FOR NEW REFUGEES! even some of the most basic things like showing them how to use ATMs, helping them get a place to live are often all done by NGOs like the Australian Refugee Assoc, and performed by volunteers like my partner who has been helping a teenage refugee family from the Sudan. The fucking federal government had fuck-all interest, though that may change with a new government, who knows?


Seriously, sometimes i think people really just need to try and put yourselves in other peoples shoes for a moment.

It's good to be back

No, you get called a fag because you like taking it up the batty...

Your music taste doesn't help much either...

i wear a pink shirt to work occasionally - i have no problem with tha ladies - i think its bout how u hold yourself in said pink shirt, if you're not confident in it - u deserve to be ridiculed and have claims of getting bummed thrown @ u.

Takes a bold man to step into an office full of females wearing a nice pink number 

disagree.

Takes the 2000 fags that will be at the future music festival

  - social pink shirt wearing is another thing... not entering that territory - unless i get a pair of diamond encrusted havianas, gucci sunnies and a fake tan

But waxing is ok?

Guys if you think pink shirts deserve their own thread (and they probably do) then feel free to start one.