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National Apology Day!!

Started by ReBECca · 13 Feb 2008 · 147 posts survive · see it on the Wayback Machine

AuthorMessage
ReBECcaBec
Posts: 1,039
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 8:31amSubject: National Apology Day!!
Big ups K Rudd for delivering THE best speech i have ever heard. If you didn't understand the 'apology' and watched Kevin Rudd's speech hopefully you get it now.

Big ups National Apology Day, let the healing begin 



Brendon Nelson, thank you for justifying why the Liberals weren't elected. I hope you enjoy the hole you have now dug for yourself, you idiot.

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warped fairyPosts: 2,020
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 8:33amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
i didn't get to watch it, but i had a read and thought it was very well written.

go kevin07!!

and as for brendan nelson, it will be hard for him to even get a peep out of that hole with that no neck of his!!
~the grass might be greener but it's just as hard to mow ~
PhunkiiPosts: 1,682
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 8:34amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I understand the Apology thing ... I just doubt anyone in my family would have raped any women. I'm sorry everyone else's family was bad ;p
Everything is so green
cleascJ.R.F.M.O
Posts: 1,949
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 8:50amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
 

I haven't read or seen it yet, but I'm glad it's finally happened!!!
"Real Drum & Bass is not something that sounds like a 17yr old rock band who have just listened to slipmat on thir first E & decided to make Drum & Bass" - DJ Presha
PhunkiiPosts: 1,682
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 8:51amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
So this is the first time an apology day has been official ? And we're going to have it every year ? And Kevin Rudd implemented this ?
Everything is so green
trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 8:56amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Yes yes and yes. Well, not having the Sorry every year, but it will be revisited in the hope that the massive differences in health, education and the like between indigenous australians and every other aussie are bridged. Close the Gap!

And Phunkii, its not just a matter of teh removals being justified because of sexual abuses n shit. There were a whole lot of blanket policies which were implements to eradicate aboriginal languages, culture and community ties. A lot of the time it was to remove communities from their land, so pastoralists could bring in cattle etc.

If you really don't know this, then I recommend reading the apology Rudd delivered! It was great.

Or, checkout this factsheet about the Apology...
http://www.getup.org.au/files/campaigns/sorryFAQ.pdf
http://www.getup.org.au/files/campaigns/The%20Apology%20Mythbusters.pdf
Munkee Snaps

"Anything you can't get out of a bottle of vodka, you don't need."..........
-   Ava Gardner......
ErikaPosts: 2,335
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 9:18amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I was ashamed of B.Nelson

really was. He really delivered in an inappropriate insensitive fashion

He wont be leader for long
JayarPromoters
Posts: 1,239
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 9:48amSubject: SORRY
"Sorry" - JR

I stayed home a little longer this morning to watch Kevin Rudd's sorry speech to the stolen generations on behalf of the Australian Government, Parliament etc. Having heard how crap his election winning speech was, I was pleasantly surprised by the tone and content of this. Said what it needed to, no blame, just an acknowledgement of the wrongs committed and an apology to the people hurt and affected by this government policy (which was still occurring until the early 1970s) and a committment to narrow the gap in life expectancy, improve health etc... and despite putting a quick boot in to Howards inability/reluctance to say sorry for the last 10+ years, offered this apology and the new committment to be non-partisan in the spirit of true reconcilliation.

Brendan Nelsons shockingly shit speech essentially said 'sorry, but' and preceded to crap on about how no one thought they were doing the wrong thing (well duh, but thats not what this 'sorry' was all about) and also managed to bullshit about aussies fighting and dying in wars, and still managed to say that taking aboriginal children from their parents *can* still be a good thing (ie, with this 'intervention') icon_eek eyebrow emot-shakehead
needless to say apparently three quarters of the people listening to the speech in federation square turned their backs to the screens and shitloads did the same on the lawns at parliament house, accompanied by some boos. it really shocked me listening to how much he just didnt get what this was actually all about. i spose he didnt want to say sorry at all a few weeks ago and only reluctantly agreed to do so cos he realised he'd look like a complete arsehole, which he ended up doing anyway.



The thing that struck me at the time was my daughter crawling around, chatting and generally being cute, and extrapolating myself to imagining having her snatched from my life to never see her again. what a truly fucking awful thing to imagine... icon_cry
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timbohPosts: 2,554
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 9:51amSubject: Re: SORRY


The thing that struck me at the time was my daughter crawling around, chatting and generally being cute, and extrapolating myself to imagining having her snatched from my life to never see her again. what a truly fucking awful thing to imagine... icon_cry

i must say i have little interest in this whole issue although i am led to believe that at times it was in the best interest of the children to remove them from their incapable parents.
cleascJ.R.F.M.O
Posts: 1,949
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 9:58amSubject: Re: SORRY
"Real Drum & Bass is not something that sounds like a 17yr old rock band who have just listened to slipmat on thir first E & decided to make Drum & Bass" - DJ Presha
JayarPromoters
Posts: 1,239
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 10:05amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
aaah shit

i started a similar thread in the soapbox cos i didnt check the random banter room. Smiley
http://www.adelaidemassive.com/index.php?topic=1088.0

mods, can we merge them? Smiley
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cleascJ.R.F.M.O
Posts: 1,949
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 10:09amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
i must say i have little interest in this whole issue although i am led to believe that at times it was in the best interest of the children to remove them from their incapable parents.

Incapable???? Agreed their may have been some incapable parents that had their children taken, but to generalise that all the families that had children taken were incapable is ridiculous. It's like saying that all children born to parents in Elizabeth should be taken away.
"Real Drum & Bass is not something that sounds like a 17yr old rock band who have just listened to slipmat on thir first E & decided to make Drum & Bass" - DJ Presha
trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 10:17amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Mm, anyways the whole day is about moving forward instead of getting stuck in what-ifs and because-ofs.... Like Rudd said, the past has already happened, we need to respect what indigenous australians have been through and offer some understanding and empathy...ANd then, look forward and be accountable as australians who are developing and implementing programs which will hopefully, close the gap between indigenous and non0indigenous australians.

May I also say,I think today marks a special time for us as Aussies, cause not only should we be working more closely with understanding and respecting Indigenous Aussies, but also making sure we make better ties with newly-emigrated Australians too Smiley
Munkee Snaps

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snappytomInto the jungle
Posts: 703
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 10:18amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Incapable???? Agreed their may have been some incapable parents that had their children taken, but to generalise that all the families that had children taken were incapable is ridiculous. It's like saying that all children born to parents in Elizabeth should be taken away.


timboh - the ignorance that was encapsulated by your remark has perpetuated this mess from the very beginning. i would be really VERY SORRY should i ever meet you one day  Angry

Bec - like I said the same thing in another thread - im quite pleased that brendon is digging a hole so deep the liberals wont recover or back peddle from for a long time. his language and entire speech was extremely insulting. although, i really do wish for bi-partisan support.  biggrin

we all watched this at uni this morning - a room full of budding and seasoned social workers committed to social justice - there was barely a dry eye in the joint, this is a very VERY JOYOUS day for us all.

however, we now must move from rhetoric and symbolism to ACTION, infrastructure and a big investment in social and human capital for ALL Australians.
I walk on concrete
I walk on sand
But I can't find...
A safe place to stand!
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timbohPosts: 2,554
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 10:21amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
you will notice that i did say "at times". considering that i really don't know much about the subject means i am not prepared to dive into an argument about this issue. i know there are heaps of people for and heaps against, i am on the fence.
QuazzaPromoters
Posts: 2,982
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 10:22amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Have never been a fan of the whole "We're sorry" thing, but glad it's been done so we can finally move forward from it
"MDMA doesn't change the fact that you're a dickhead. Don't hug me." James M

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chrisGlobal Moderator
Posts: 3,571
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 10:30amSubject: Re: SORRY
can these threads/poll be merged?

i kinda thought that its a little more than 'random banter', hence i didnt even look in there!

done. Smiley
confidence is a preference to the habitual voyuer of what is known as...

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JayarPromoters
Posts: 1,239
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 10:34amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
considering that i really don't know much about the subject means i am not prepared to dive into an argument about this issue.

good reason not to yup

just the same though, i wonder who is 'against' it? i know of a few people who werent keen on saying sorry, but it turned out they misunderstood what exactly it entailed. its not about blaming ourselves, but acknowledging the wrongs committed in the past (something Howard seemed unwilling to do) by government policy, in an attempt to move forward.

its a small gesture with a big meaning. it shouldnt have been so hard to do, or taken so long.

rudd pointed out that there were serving parliamentarians who were in office when they policy was still running in the early 70s.
but seriously, brendan nelson can fuck off with his 'justification' muddying things up. what a gutless wanker. people are going to remember his pissweak backhanded apology for some time im sure.
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deathmazePosts: 1,491
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 10:44amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
just the same though, i wonder who is 'against' it? i know of a few people who werent keen on saying sorry, but it turned out they misunderstood what exactly it entailed. its not about blaming ourselves, but acknowledging the wrongs committed in the past (something Howard seemed unwilling to do) by government policy, in an attempt to move forward.

Exactly what I was thinking... the only people who are "against it" must be people who don't understand it! Some people seem to get defensive because they feel like they are being blamed for stuff that happened in the past, but Rudd was very clear in stating that he was saying sorry for past government policies, and was not saying individual people were responsible, even those people who enacted the policies.

I think the speech was surprisingly good and covered lots of different aspects very well! I wonder if Howard watched it?  teef
JayarPromoters
Posts: 1,239
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 11:03amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I think the speech was surprisingly good and covered lots of different aspects very well! I wonder if Howard watched it?  teef

i wondered that too - i was thinking he'd be rolling in his (political) grave laugh
good to see whitlam, hawke and keating in the chamber to hear the speech.


today was the first day in years ive felt proud to be an australian Smiley
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deathmazePosts: 1,491
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 11:12amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I was surprised that I felt such a strong sense of relief this morning when I knew it was actually going to happen.... it definitely felt like something that should have happened years ago was finally going to occur. Let's hope they do follow up with solutions to the existing problems... at least now there's a bit more hope!
ReBECcaBec
Posts: 1,039
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 11:34amSubject: Re: SORRY
i must say i have little interest in this whole issue although i am led to believe that at times it was in the best interest of the children to remove them from their incapable parents.

Get educated dude  Tongue
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"...hit in the throat with a golf ball bwahahahaha...
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trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 11:36amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I was surprised that I felt such a strong sense of relief this morning when I knew it was actually going to happen....

yep, me too lady. i was mega happy, and also sad because this really did happen. also, i wished i could discuss it with my mom, she would have been so stoked!
Munkee Snaps

"Anything you can't get out of a bottle of vodka, you don't need."..........
-   Ava Gardner......
ReBECcaBec
Posts: 1,039
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 11:37amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
i wondered that too - i was thinking he'd be rolling in his (political) grave laugh
good to see whitlam, hawke and keating in the chamber to hear the speech.


today was the first day in years ive felt proud to be an australian Smiley

Seconded.
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"...hit in the throat with a golf ball bwahahahaha...
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CourtzGlobal Moderator
Posts: 934
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 11:40amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Got an email today with this:

Now I don't agree with it .. but yeah, obviously some people aren't happy about the whole sorry issue.
 
laugh

Quote
Come on Kevin say - SORRY
AUSTRALIAN APOLOGY TO THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION


We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.

We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and enterprise.

We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you, which you have vandalised and destroyed.

We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.

We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and starving during droughts.

We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric to replace that animal skins you used before.

We apologise for building roads and railway tracks between cities and building cars so that you no longer have to walk over harsh terrain.

We apologise for paying off your vehicle when you fail to pay the installments.

We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever.

We apologise for giving each and every member of your family $100.00 and free travel to attend an aboriginal funeral.

We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have to pay.

We apologise for giving you interest free loans.

We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.

 We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to you so that you get all the money.

We apologise for allowing taxpayers money paid towards daughters’ wedding ($8,000.00 each daughter)

We apologise for giving you $1.7 billion per year for your 250,000 people, which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.

We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare, medical care, education, etc to the tune of $1.2 billion each year.

We apologise for you having to approach the aboriginal affairs department to verify the above figures.  For the trouble you will have identifying the “uncle toms” in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some of you living in squalor and poverty.

We do apologise.  We really do.

We humbly beg your forgiveness for all the above sins. 

We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the “outback”, whenever you are ready.  No!!!!!!  ?????
chrisGlobal Moderator
Posts: 3,571
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 11:42amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
oh god. don't get bec started on that.
confidence is a preference to the habitual voyuer of what is known as...

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trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 11:43amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
haha, like ALL of the indigenous Australian population hails from 'the outback'..TARDS!

urgh that email/list is just so flawed. nice one, whitey!
Munkee Snaps

"Anything you can't get out of a bottle of vodka, you don't need."..........
-   Ava Gardner......
cleascJ.R.F.M.O
Posts: 1,949
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 11:44amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
That's pretty fuckin disgraceful!!!
"Real Drum & Bass is not something that sounds like a 17yr old rock band who have just listened to slipmat on thir first E & decided to make Drum & Bass" - DJ Presha
LexyGlobal Moderator
Posts: 5,059
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 11:49amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Uh oh.
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FunkyJPromoters
Posts: 1,992
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:04pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I'm sorry the people of Australia had to endure KRudd droning on for what seemed like hours on end...

Couldn't he have gotten someone like Jack Thompson or even John Laws, you know, someone you can actually listen to without falling to sleep, to read it?
trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:06pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
even John Laws, you know, someone you can actually listen to without falling to sleep, to read it?

Jesus J, u really are funkyj

teef
Munkee Snaps

"Anything you can't get out of a bottle of vodka, you don't need."..........
-   Ava Gardner......
JayarPromoters
Posts: 1,150
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:08pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Come on Kevin say - SORRY
AUSTRALIAN APOLOGY TO THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION

We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies. diseases you'd never encountered before that wiped you out wholesale

We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and enterprise. forcibly stripping you of your own language and culture while we set out to ruin your landscape

We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you, which you have vandalised and destroyed. substandard housing and forcing you to live in them when you have never lived in a fixed structure in your history.

We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes. stripping you of your tribal laws and honour and preventing you from having access to white mans laws, thereby enabling us to slaughter you for sport

We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and starving during droughts. throwing you off your tribal lands and hunting grounds and shooting you should you trespass in order to hunt and eat.

We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have to pay. taking your land and making you feel like you should be thankful when youre allowed back on it.

We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value. exploiting and ruining your land often for no compensation

 We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to you so that you get all the money. which are your sacred sites and then allowing people to walk all over them contrary to your beliefs because we dont give a fuck to care or ask.



We apologise for giving you $1.7 billion per year for your 250,000 people, which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.

We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare, medical care, education, etc to the tune of $1.2 billion each year.

We apologise for you having to approach the aboriginal affairs department to verify the above figures.  For the trouble you will have identifying the “uncle toms” in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some of you living in squalor and poverty.

any irony in the last three statemtents together???!!!
ie mindlessly throwing money at something is not the same as understanding and fixing a problem...

Seriously, if a 'friend' of mine sent me that, i'd really be reconsdering my friendship with them.

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trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:23pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
 clap clap clap clap
Munkee Snaps

"Anything you can't get out of a bottle of vodka, you don't need."..........
-   Ava Gardner......
LexyGlobal Moderator
Posts: 4,983
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:26pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
 clap emot-nod
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CourtzGlobal Moderator
Posts: 934
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:31pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Seriously, if a 'friend' of mine sent me that, i'd really be reconsdering my friendship with them.

Like I said, didn't expect any less, and I'm not going to argue with him, it's his opinion and he is entitled to have one, just because we don't agree on the same things doesn't mean we can't be friends Smiley plus he wouldn't listen to what I had to say anyway laugh
HayleyPosts: 965
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:35pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Yeah I have to admit...although that email is supposed to be a joke...it is worded in a really racially nasty tone IMO.
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JayarPromoters
Posts: 1,150
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:40pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Yeah I have to admit...although that email is supposed to be a joke...it is worded in a really racially nasty tone IMO.

and one of wilful ignorance of fact. anyway to me, this whole thing is beyond making a joke like that about it.

i mean fuck, how fucking hard IS it to just put yourself in their shoes and try and imagine all that has happened to them over 200+ years and imagine the same happening to us from say now? sometimes i have to just shake my head and some of the things ive heard said, and just hope that its because they dont know what has happened.

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snappytomInto the jungle
Posts: 701
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:41pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Like I said, didn't expect any less, and I'm not going to argue with him, it's his opinion and he is entitled to have one, just because we don't agree on the same things doesn't mean we can't be friends Smiley plus he wouldn't listen to what I had to say anyway laugh


who sent it to you - timboh?  laugh

warped fairyPosts: 1,971
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:42pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
 rofl   rofl    rofl

but.. i don't think he's that much of a cunt!
~the grass might be greener but it's just as hard to mow ~
trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:43pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Lets not forget the big picture here...Nice to hear responses from Aboriginal Elders n the like Smiley

Sorry welcomed, SA groups now keen for compo

Thousands of people who gathered at Elder Park in Adelaide to watch the Prime Minister apologise to the Stolen Generations applauded when the word sorry was spoken. Many said they never thought they would see the day when an apology was made. A big screen telecast Kevin Rudd's speech in Federal Parliament. There was a counselling tent available for people overwhelmed by the occasion.

Elder Yami Lester says he is humbled by the support shown by non-indigenous Australians. "Well done by the Australian people, in Australia, and the government, thank you very much," he said. Jenni Caruso is a member of the Stolen Generations and says the importance of the day is hard for her to put into words. "I am overwhelmed and I cannot describe the depth of emotion that reaches beyond my toes and my fingers," she said.

South Australian Indigenous groups say they would now like to see the SA Government agree on a compensation fund for members of the Stolen Generations. Across South Australia there have been other gatherings to watch and listen to the apology. Elsie Jackson, of Port Augusta, says she was disappointed when Opposition leader Brendan Nelson spoke and appeared to defend past policies. "The opposite fella, nah, I don't agree with what he said."

Federal Liberal MP Patrick Secker says it was disappointing that Dr Nelson is received a lukewarm response to his speech in Parliament. Mr Secker says he does not understand why some people turned their backs. "It's quite disgraceful. If people are still going to think about past occurrences then I think reconciliation will have a much harder road," he said.
Munkee Snaps

"Anything you can't get out of a bottle of vodka, you don't need."..........
-   Ava Gardner......
cleascJ.R.F.M.O
Posts: 1,899
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:44pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
just hope that its because they dont know what has happened.

The don't know what happened because they simply don't care.
And if some of them actually bothered to find out what happened in the past, they would probably just sit there wishing that the policies that were put into action had been even more successful.

 punch
Jellious Rebellious
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deathmazePosts: 1,441
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:45pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Yeah I have to admit...although that email is supposed to be a joke...it is worded in a really racially nasty tone IMO.

It's not supposed to be a joke, it is suppost to be racially nasty!
snappytomInto the jungle
Posts: 701
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:48pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
i wondered that too - i was thinking he'd be rolling in his (political) grave laugh
good to see whitlam, hawke and keating in the chamber to hear the speech.


today was the first day in years ive felt proud to be an australian Smiley


me too!

did you see the look whitlam was giving brendan during his 'sorry-ass speech'? woooo... death daggers galore  laugh
HayleyPosts: 965
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 12:50pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
It's not supposed to be a joke, it is suppost to be racially nasty!

Don't get me wrong. It made me feel quite sick at the person who wrote it..as I found it hard to imagine someone who can turn something as beautiful as an apology into something so ugly. My friend who forwarded it thought it was a joke though.

There is a lot of racial tension out there!
I can see it in your eyes
Taste it in our first kiss
Stranger in this lonely town..this lonely town
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deathmazePosts: 1,441
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:01pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
My friend who forwarded it thought it was a joke though.

If it's a joke then where's the funny bit?

Sorry but only a racially nasty person would forward it as a joke unless they didn't read it before forwarding it!

cleascJ.R.F.M.O
Posts: 1,899
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:02pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Sorry but only a racially nasty person would forward it as a joke unless they didn't read it before forwarding it!

Unless they were ranting about it to someone...
Jellious Rebellious
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JayarPromoters
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:14pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
it is so full on, that i guess you could be forgiven for thinking it was an over-the top pisstake of the attitudes of those in the population who's parents also happen to be brother and sister.

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deathmazePosts: 1,441
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:16pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
it is so full on, that i guess you could be forgiven for thinking it was an over-the top pisstake of the attitudes of those in the population who's parents also happen to be brother and sister.

How insulting... not all inbreeds are racist!
chrisGlobal Moderator
Posts: 3,419
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:24pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
i took it as a joke. said that when i initially got the e-mail. i didn't find it overly funny. but i took it in that manner.

guess i'm racist then. icon_rolleyes
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deathmazePosts: 1,441
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:28pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
But what part of it is funny at all to even think it's a joke?
CourtzGlobal Moderator
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:31pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
i took it as a joke. said that when i initially got the e-mail. i didn't find it overly funny. but i took it in that manner.

guess i'm racist then. icon_rolleyes

I thought it was a joke at first .. but after reading it I realised it wasn't really funny, there was no punch line teef

I took it very tongue in cheek though, thought there is no point getting worked up about it. Like I said everyone is entitled to their own opinions no matter how wrong they are.
chrisGlobal Moderator
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:36pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
i said i took it as a joke. i didn't say i found it funny.

how that makes somebody a racist is beyond me. but hey, i guess i am one.

edit: thankyou courtz. that's probably better worded than me.


has nobody in here ever made a joke about another culture before? honestly?

racist scum.
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HayleyPosts: 965
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:37pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
If it's a joke then where's the funny bit?

Sorry but only a racially nasty person would forward it as a joke unless they didn't read it before forwarding it!



I didn't find it funny! So no need to apologise to me!

But some people are uneducated about what has happened. They sure didn't teach it when I was at school. All that went around were the jokes. And the fact that some aborigines seem to resent us, and display that resentment, on the street. Try having an open mind to why people are the way they are about this issue. Ive been at the other end of aboriginal racism towards me, and it's not very nice either!

I hope that this is the start of a better relationship.

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deathmazePosts: 1,441
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:39pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
has nobody in here ever made a joke about another culture before? honestly?

But it is a tool to try to intentionally encourage racism, not just a racist joke... it's not even a racist joke!
cleascJ.R.F.M.O
Posts: 1,899
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:40pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I don't think anyone actually called you a racist Chris.... but you keep submitting to be one?!?!
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HayleyPosts: 965
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:40pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
But it is a tool to try to intentionally encourage racism, not just a racist joke... it's not even a racist joke!

I have to agree with Deathmaze, that email was a tool, and so was the person who wrote it!  laugh
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JayarPromoters
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:46pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I hope that this is the start of a better relationship.

 Smiley yes!

i said i took it as a joke. i didn't say i found it funny.

how that makes somebody a racist is beyond me. but hey, i guess i am one.

the only person i saw calling you a racist chris was you! teef

anyway, like i said, on reflection i guess i can see how some people could think it was a joke in poor taste because it seems to unbelievable over the top to be true. to me it stood out like a sore thumb, so apologies if anyone took my remark the wrong way.

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chrisGlobal Moderator
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:47pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
if you choose to take it that way, absolutely.

if you choose to take it with a grain of salt though......

that's all something like that is worth taking if you ask me.


it certainly didn't seem worth firing up over like others seem to think. i.e. 'i'd be seriously re-thinking my friendship if a friend sent that to me' .

what a load of crap. i certainly didn't feel any negative thoughts about the person that sent it to me. to be honest. i actually felt sorry for them for then being told off about it so much.

people are so passionate about this topic that they get quite spiteful themselves to anyone who might just happen to disagree with their thoughts and beliefs.
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chrisGlobal Moderator
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:49pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I don't think anyone actually called you a racist Chris.... but you keep submitting to be one?!?!

Sorry but only a racially nasty person would forward it as a joke unless they didn't read it before forwarding it!

i forwarded it to my brother. that's how it fits in with me.

i didn't forward it as a joke though. that's how it was on the e-mail.


sure a hell of a lot of other people would have done it too, but i wouldn't call them racist for it.
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CourtzGlobal Moderator
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:52pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
if you choose to take it that way, absolutely.

if you choose to take it with a grain of salt though......

that's all something like that is worth taking if you ask me.


it certainly didn't seem worth firing up over like others seem to think. i.e. 'i'd be seriously re-thinking my friendship if a friend sent that to me' .

what a load of crap. i certainly didn't feel any negative thoughts about the person that sent it to me. to be honest. i actually felt sorry for them for then being told off about it so much.

people are so passionate about this topic that they get quite spiteful themselves to anyone who might just happen to disagree with their thoughts and beliefs.

thumbs-up

Totally agree Chris. I didn't realise people would get so fired up about it, like I said I certainly didn't think too much of it. Just another stupid work email that I received.
chrisGlobal Moderator
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 1:54pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
thankyou courtz. was just about to hang myself over it all. laugh
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deathmazePosts: 1,441
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:01pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I'm sorry for calling you racially nasty chris!

The email is so many years old I can't believe it's still being sent around!
JayarPromoters
Posts: 1,150
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:05pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
sheesh!

IMO although it stood out to me as blindingly obvious that it was spiteful and racially motivated (and for the reasons mentioned several times below, i can now see that it could be taken as a joke) its still in pretty poor taste, regardless of any justification. ill leave it at that.

for the record, i never said i would think of my friend as racist if they sent said email (and meant it) but i would question why on earth they sent it.


urgh, look at how that tool has people turning against each other who wouldnt have otherwise. nice work tool! laugh

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HayleyPosts: 965
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:06pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
if you choose to take it that way, absolutely.

if you choose to take it with a grain of salt though......

that's all something like that is worth taking if you ask me.


it certainly didn't seem worth firing up over like others seem to think. i.e. 'i'd be seriously re-thinking my friendship if a friend sent that to me' .

what a load of crap. i certainly didn't feel any negative thoughts about the person that sent it to me. to be honest. i actually felt sorry for them for then being told off about it so much.

people are so passionate about this topic that they get quite spiteful themselves to anyone who might just happen to disagree with their thoughts and beliefs.

Yeh I sure don't believe in getting nasty with someone who might have forwarded the email on..I see nothing wrong with questioning the person on it if they thought it was funny or true though  Smiley

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ReBECcaBec
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:07pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
OK, my turn to step in  laugh

Firstly, the reason i got so passionate about that email Chris is:

You don't send a racist email to a SOCIAL WORKER WHO WORKS WITH INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS!!

Secondly is because the email wasn't intended to be a joke, but i do believe unless you are emotionally affected or passionate about the subject of humans services, human welfare and human rights you probably would see that email as being either a little amusing or 'a nothing email'.

What gets me is people's ignorance in Australia of where they actually came from, its all very well to celebrate 'Australia Day' how about 'invasion day' lets talk about and acknowledge what really happened. How can you be a proud Australian if you have no understanding of what happened in the country you live in?

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ReBECcaBec
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:09pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
And Chris i don't think you are racist, and i did apologise for being overly reactive in response to that email, but sending it to me wasn't the smartest action to take, its my job to advocate, of course im going to find an email like that upsetting.
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chrisGlobal Moderator
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:10pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I'm sorry for calling you racially nasty chris!

The email is so many years old I can't believe it's still being sent around!

nah, you're alright. icon_wink

i am pretty proud to believe that i don't think i really know any 'real' racists at all. we live in a pretty decent society today.
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trashy_chicaTrash it up!
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:13pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
very good points bec, actually i must admit that its a dubious email to send around at work!! most workplaces have VERY strict reconciliation policies...!!

not many people would know any 'real racists', but most of us in some way are dealing with prejudices (both our own, as well as others') and its good to be aware of it! i don't think any of us really are aware of the prejudices we accept on a daily level.

but, there is hope! in everything this day symbolises Smiley
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chrisGlobal Moderator
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:14pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
And Chris i don't think you are racist, and i did apologise for being overly reactive in response to that email, but sending it to me wasn't the smartest action to take, its my job to advocate, of course im going to find an email like that upsetting.

and i can completely understand it bec. it's your job, and i know just how passionate you are about it all. i remember our chat the other week. icon_wink


but i still felt sorry for the person who sent it.
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ReBECcaBec
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:14pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
nah, you're alright. icon_wink

i am pretty proud to believe that i don't think i really know any 'real' racists at all. we live in a pretty decent society today.

And that is what actually came out of today as well. I went to elder park with my colleagues and clients, and the atmosphere was soooo great, it was all about forgiveness and healing. They had a comedy show on making jokes about 'black fellas and white fellas' and our differences and about how it's time to move on together.

I had THE BEST day. It was absolutely beautiful. I had goose bumps all day, it was amazing.
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HayleyPosts: 965
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:17pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
and i can completely understand it bec. it's your job, and i know just how passionate you are about it all. i remember our chat the other week. icon_wink


but i still felt sorry for the person who sent it.

Me too. It was cos Miss Passionate *love ya bec* flamed her in a group email.

hahaha
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ReBECcaBec
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:22pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Me too. It was cos Miss Passionate *love ya bec* flamed her in a group email.

hahaha

Yes i flamed her good.

But i did apologise and we talked it out  inlove
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trashy_chicaTrash it up!
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:28pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
And that is what actually came out of today as well. I went to elder park with my colleagues and clients, and the atmosphere was soooo great, it was all about forgiveness and healing. They had a comedy show on making jokes about 'black fellas and white fellas' and our differences and about how it's time to move on together.

I had THE BEST day. It was absolutely beautiful. I had goose bumps all day, it was amazing.

OOH wish I could have stayed there all day! Had to get back to uni Smiley I cant wait to go see Deadly Funny at the Fringe, Bec u down? Should be some awesome stories and humour Smiley
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ReBECcaBec
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:29pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
OOH wish I could have stayed there all day! Had to get back to uni Smiley I cant wait to go see Deadly Funny at the Fringe, Bec u down? Should be some awesome stories and humour Smiley

Yes i am, he was fantastic  Smiley
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oliJust the
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:41pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Well there's the symbolic step. Now I want to see some practical steps taken in engagement with Indigenous communities and I want to see things dramatically improve in my lifetime.

At least we're heading in the right direction now - unlike during Howard's years when this whole issue literally stood still.
JayarPromoters
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:55pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
At least we're heading in the right direction now - unlike during Howard's years when this whole issue literally stood still.

no, i'd actually say we went backward those years.




awww, so nice to read all the group hugs and love ins and everyones reconciled again on this reconcilingly reconcilious day  teef

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trashy_chicaTrash it up!
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 2:59pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
awww, so nice to read all the group hugs and love ins and everyones reconciled again on this reconcilingly reconcilious day  teef

PLUR n shit!! teef
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oliJust the
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 3:18pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
no, i'd actually say we went backward those years.

Actually you're right, compared to previous governments we did go backwards during the Howard era. I should have thought a bit more before that post. Anyway there's still a long way to go and I think everyone is more confident now about the coming decade than they would have been a decade ago. Smiley
KeyserPromoters
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 3:44pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I cant wait to go see Deadly Funny at the Fringe,

Wonder if the comedians are going to be dealing with current affairs such as this in their routines... This (Apology Day) seems like a subject ripe for some comedic raping imo. I know some people are going to find the following comment to be offensive somehow, but I love it when the oppressed put one over the oppressor by shocking the shit out of them and letting them know that they know what the stereotype of their culture is. For example, that email would be funny if it was the opening line of one of the comedians at Deadly Funny...
    "So, you pay all my bills. give me housing, give me clothes, feed me and keep on handing over the cash? What the fuck are you saying sorry for?"
Agreed? Maybe ey. But that is the thin line between funny and unfunny these days. Never laugh at a joke unless you can see who's telling it!  laugh
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trashy_chicaTrash it up!
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 3:59pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
oh yesh, it is a fine line. and a lot of power in humour..!
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LucyPosts: 211
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 4:58pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Yes i flamed her good.

But i did apologise and we talked it out  inlove

I guess the phrase choose your audience comes to mind  teef
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el_pattoPosts: 145
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 4:59pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I'm not to fussed by this whole thing but it is a step in the right direction and shows that Australia can be a step ahead of other countries in the way of its thinking.

As for comments about how this is the first time in years it has made you feel proud to be an Aussie, well if that's really the way you feel about it then I feel sorry for you.
trashy_chicaTrash it up!
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 5:03pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Mm, for most people the phrase 'today made me proud to be an aussie' rings true.. A lot of people HAVE very much enjoyed being Aussies, and in most ways proud with a small 'p' to be an aussie - but today, the PM's gesture (the government's gesture, I should say) allowed lots of aussies to really be happy to say they are australian, without any sense of hypocrisy or derision about some of australia'd dubious policies, both in the present as well as the past.
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oliJust the
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 5:10pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I'm not to fussed by this whole thing but it is a step in the right direction and shows that Australia can be a step ahead of other countries in the way of its thinking.

Sorry but I think the last part of your sentence is completely wrong. If you look at other parts of the world which were conquered and/or invaded by Europeans then we are a long long way behind those countries in our 'way of thinking'.

Sure, most indigenous populations are still worse off than their conquerors, but overall they've had a better run than Australian Aboriginals.

The Maoris got a treaty relatively early on. The Inuits were also handled like shit but things got a lot better for them in the past 50 years in comparison to the Aboriginals here. The American Indians (and Indians across all of South America as well) also didn't have a good time but also have had a better time over the past generations. It's particularly relevant that in South America heaps of the indigenous groups suffered huge population drops mainly because of crap the Europeans brought with them rather than because of a deliberate policy to essentially destroy their culture.

Here on the other hand children were still been taken away in the late '60s and we're now 8 years into the 21st century and only now do we get a real apology... I agree with you that it's a step in the right direction, but there's no way we're ahead in our way of thinking.
FunkyJPromoters
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 5:16pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Jesus J, u really are funkyj

Maybe I should have said Rich Kingsmill or that voiceover dude from SBS for all you younger kids... nahnah

I just meant that those people are great orators and Krudd's got the personality of a ball of fluff. His monotone droning devalues everything he says, even things as important as the Apology.
el_pattoPosts: 145
Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 5:20pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
To Trashy, for sure be proud today.  But to say that its for the first time in years - I think is missing the point of being Australian in the first place.

To Oli, your first few sentences there don't make sense to me in relation to saying sorry.  Throughout history where else has 'sorry' occurred between countries let alone original inhabitants?

For saying 'sorry' we are ahead while obviously lacking still in other areas.
oliJust the
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 5:24pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
To Oli, your first few sentences there don't make sense to me in relation to saying sorry.  Throughout history where else has 'sorry' occurred between countries let alone original inhabitants?  Sure things have gotten better over time and thats what is about to begin here - just there has been no sorry before.

For saying 'sorry' we are ahead while obviously lacking still in other areas.

What I mean is that the continual treatment here meant that sorry had been required for ages - where in most other places a treaty or less bad treatment overall meant that the symbolic gesture of saying sorry simply wasn't even considered or required - let alone requested by the indigenous people and rejected by the government of the day for so long.

Sorry for rambling, hope that makes sense...
JayarPromoters
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Posted: 13 Feb 2008, 8:15pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
As for comments about how this is the first time in years it has made you feel proud to be an Aussie, well if that's really the way you feel about it then I feel sorry for you.

im probably a few years older than you and for what its worth, i think socially this country took more than a few steps back during the howard years and i cant say he made me particularly proud to be australian (along with all the other 'race' related things he did post september 11)
so yeah, we had it gooderer before teef, and now things are on the up and up

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snappytomInto the jungle
Posts: 701
Posted: 14 Feb 2008, 9:41amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
 wave hi Timboh, here is a link you might find informative. i apologise for being snappy - i admit i was in effect going against the purpose of reconciliation - to unify ALL aussies.

http://www20.sbs.com.au/news/livingblack/
trashy_chicaTrash it up!
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Posted: 14 Feb 2008, 11:19amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
A pretty decent media article about yesterday's events...From the ABC website. I have bolded the quotes which I think were points well made! 

Apology the latest salvo fired in the 'culture wars'

By Tony Jones

Undercurrents of the so-called "culture wars" were never far from the surface of yesterday's apology to the Stolen Generations in Parliament. "These stories cry out to be heard. They cry out for an apology," Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said during his address.

"Instead, from the nation's Parliament, there has been a stony and stubborn and deafening silence for more than a decade. A view that somehow we, the Parliament, should suspend our most basic instincts of what is right and what is wrong. "A view that instead we should look for any pretext to push this great wrong to one side, to leave it languishing with the historians, the academics and the cultural warriors as if the Stolen Generations is a little more that an interesting sociological phenomenon."

Professor Henry Reynolds, who has written extensively about the conflicts between black and white Australians, particularly in the early years of settlement, told ABC TV's Lateline program that Mr Rudd's words clearly laid the blame for this "stony and stubborn and deafening silence" with former prime minister John Howard and the culture wars. "It was obviously a reference to John Howard and he was clearly marking out the clear difference between the previous government and his own new government," Professor Reynolds said.

But he says parts of Federal Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson's speech picked up on some of the old themes of the Howard years. I think he obviously faced a difficult situation," he said. "He wanted to be seen, to be part of the great occasion but at the same time he felt he had to appeal to a conservative audience, out and beyond those in Canberra. "He was doing what my old friend [former Queensland premier] Joh Bjelke-Petersen once said was like trying to walk on both sides of a barbed wire fence."

Backs turned

Large groups of people watching from Parliament's Great Hall and in Federation Square in Melbourne turned their backs to Dr Nelson when he spoke. The images reminded some of a reconciliation conference in Melbourne in 1997, where Indigenous people turned their backs on former prime minister John Howard. At the time, Mr Howard was railing against symbolism. Gerard Henderson, the executive director of the Sydney Institute and author of several books on the Liberal Party, said he wouldn't have written the kind of speech that Dr Nelson gave, but that the criticism is a bit over the top.

"I think Brendan Nelson made a mistake referring to sexual crime in an address of this kind," Dr Henderson said. "But in other matters what he said was accurate to a large extent, and I think he paid due regard to those people, many of them Christian workers, who gave up their lives to help Aborigines and who thought they were doing well - and on many accounts did do well.

"What I am interested in in a sense is what wasn't said today. "For example, there is no reference to genocide, which was a central part of Ronald Wilson's report, 'Bringing Them Home'. There is no reference to murder, as in 'we committed the murders', which was a central part of Paul Keating's address at Redfern in 1992. "So I think what you see here is some concessions on the Government's side of the debate to moderate the language and I think that Kevin Rudd has done well in doing that."

"There have been some changes in the debate and, whilst I think Brendan Nelson's speech was unwise in part, some of which he said was true. If you go back and look at the history of the last 40 years, large numbers of the problems were caused by people with goodwill. "Going back to the 1965 Aboriginal stockman's case where the arbitration commission put Aboriginal workers on wage levels knowing that they couldn't sustain them and that that would lead to unemployment - it was all done with the best will in the world."

Changing the country

Professor Reynolds says he thought the Rudd speech was far better than he had been expecting. "I think it was a very moving speech," he said. "I think all sorts of people were deeply moved by it and indeed, behind the speech was clearly a quite different interpretation of Australia's history than was favoured during the John Howard era.

"To that extent, I think it does represent a very dramatic change. The reaction of so many people all over Australia indicated just how much he had touched the nation, and I think that was the most amazing thing about it. "It wasn't so much what happened within the Parliament House in Canberra, it was this extraordinary national experience that was felt all over the country." Professor Reynolds was one of the main targets when Geoffrey Blainey originally coined the phrase 'black armband history'. He says the apology will have an effect on the academic conflict over Australia's history.

"The academic debate has never been separated from the political debate," he said. "Quite obviously the new government is adopting a radically different interpretation of what has happened in the past and there's no doubt that that will affect the way Australians generally think about the past - even though there will be many people who will continue to oppose strongly the views that were implicit in the Prime Minister's statement."

It was former prime minister Paul Keating who said "change the Government and you change the country".

But Dr Henderson said he's not sure the country has been changed. "It was a good speech by the Prime Minister and it wasn't surprising that he did it," he said. "He said he was going to do it and he did it ... It doesn't necessarily change the country.

"If you look at the kind of matters Noel Pearson was writing about in The Australian a couple of days ago, he made the point that some of the people in the separated generation went there in chains and some went there with one or more parents and he made the point that the problems of welfare, dependency, remain after an apology. "I don't have a problem with an apology. I am pleased it's out of the way. But realistically, a lot of the problems faced by Aborigines in Australia today have been caused by well-meaning policies of well-meaning people, predominantly white people, in governments in Canberra and in Queensland and the Northern Territory and in Western Australia."

Good intentions?

Professor Reynolds says he does not agree with a lot of what Noel Pearson says. "There's much about his interpretation of the past and there's much about Gerard's interpretation that I don't agree with. "I don't agree for one moment that the main problem is well-meaning but mistaken policies. I think a great deal of the problem has been neglect and indifference.

"The policies for much of the time we're talking about weren't well-intentioned in the obvious sense. They were designed to absorb and assimilate the Aboriginal people. And the people who put those policies into practice were open and frank about their objectives. They wanted to make the Aborigines disappear. "If that is well-meaning, it certainly was seen at the time to be in the national interest to do that, but that doesn't mean that we should now look back and say they were well-meaning.

"The idea was that the Aborigines were a minority, it was bad to have a minority in a nation and the minority should be absorbed. That was the policy, that was the objective, the objective was absorption and assimilation. "That has been the fundamental policy the Howard Government over the last 11 years and indeed the policy that I imagine Gerard Henderson favours." But Dr Henderson said the Aboriginal stockman's case in the 1960s shows that many people were trying to help Aborigines. "They were trying to give them more money," he said.


"It proved to be an absolute disaster and people like Noel Pearson and people who live in these parts of Australia have understood that through their families and own experiences. "I don't think this has to do with the culture wars. To a large extent the culture wars are an invention of the left in objection to other people contesting their territory. "I don't think Kevin Rudd's engaged in a culture war, I think John Howard has made a number of errors as he conceded at his speech at the Sydney Institute but he did do a lot to actually help Aborigines. I don't think this has anything to do with the culture wars.

"We've seen Kevin Rudd's approach today but he acknowledges it has to be followed up with policy and we will look to see how the policy goes. It's got to be judged over five or 10 years. "But I think it's diminishing the debate a bit saying this has to do with a few academics and a few universities talking to one another about what they consider to be the culture wars."
Munkee Snaps

"Anything you can't get out of a bottle of vodka, you don't need."..........
-   Ava Gardner......
ReBECcaBec
Posts: 981
Posted: 14 Feb 2008, 11:48amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
To Trashy, for sure be proud today.  But to say that its for the first time in years - I think is missing the point of being Australian in the first place.


I think saying 'sorry' is in the true spirit of being Australian, which is why yesterday was the first time i have felt a wave of emotion and a feeling of being proud to be apart of a country and wider culture of forgiveness and acceptance. I am nearly 25, and in my adult years i have never seen a speach from a governmental representational leader that moved me the way Kevin Rudd delivered that speech. He spoke from the heart with sincerity and respect. I have NEVER seen that in any other PM in my time of being politically involved in the community.

This is what made me proud. We have an honest, respectful, courages Man as PM (with a strong woman behind him *wink*) finally, someone who sticks to their convictions and offers the parliment congruency.
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snappytomInto the jungle
Posts: 701
Posted: 14 Feb 2008, 11:56amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
http://apology.west.net.au/redfern.html

 


if you liked Rudd's speech Bec, this one will knock your socks off!!!!!!!

a speech Paul Keating presented in Red Fern in the early 1990's I think...

NessaPosts: 1,491
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 11:15amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Gillard reiterates opposition to compo

Friday February 15th, 2008.

The federal government says it remains opposed to compensation for the stolen generation, despite plans for Victoria's first stolen generation claim.

Days after Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's historic apology, Reservoir man Neville Austin, 44, revealed plans to launch an action against Victoria in the first case of its kind.

His barrister Jack Rush QC said he had been working on the case with Mr Austin for 12 months.

But Acting Prime Minister Julia Gillard reiterated the government's stance against compensation.

"We have said no to compensation, there have been people who have asked the federal government to create a national compensation fund," Ms Gillard told Fairfax Radio Network.

But she said she would have to check with Attorney-General Robert McClelland to see if the government would be specifically represented in the Austin case.

The head of Stolen Generations Victoria and Mr Austin's cousin, Lyn Austin, said while she could not comment on Mr Austin's case, dozens more were preparing similar claims.

"I cannot make comment on that case at all, but ... I do know that there are another 30 or 40 that are going to be doing a civil action claim," she told ABC radio in Melbourne.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/080214/2/15uas.html

LexyGlobal Moderator
Posts: 4,983
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 1:56pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Does anyone think they should receive compensation?

(Just wondering what other people's opinions are)
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cleascJ.R.F.M.O
Posts: 1,899
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 2:05pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
IMO, they shouldn't. But say that, people get compensation for bloody anything and everything these days.
So why should this be any different.
Jellious Rebellious
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deathmazePosts: 1,441
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 2:16pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Does anyone think they should receive compensation?

Their circumstances must all be so different and there must be individuals who do deserve compensation and those that don't... so I think the ones who deserve it should and the one's who don't deserve it shouldn't  biggrin
warped fairyPosts: 1,971
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 2:18pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
i don't think they should get individual compensation, imagine trying to work out who should get what and why?

but some sort of compenesation as a whole is due, maybe in a way of education or health or housing etc, which i think they are already looking at doing.
~the grass might be greener but it's just as hard to mow ~
deathmazePosts: 1,441
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 2:30pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
i don't think they should get individual compensation, imagine trying to work out who should get what and why?

Why have any legal system at all? It's so hard trying to work out who should get what and why!

Why should other members of society be treated as individuals who are eligible to be compensated as individuals while this particular group of people have to be treated as a group?
warped fairyPosts: 1,971
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 2:36pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
i know what you mean..

i'm just thinking in terms of backtracking over the last 70 odd years..
~the grass might be greener but it's just as hard to mow ~
cleascJ.R.F.M.O
Posts: 1,899
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 2:48pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there haven't been any precedents set in terms of compensation for 'The Stolen Generation'.
And it was my understanding that saying 'Sorry' did not include an open invitation for claims against the government.
Jellious Rebellious
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chrisGlobal Moderator
Posts: 3,419
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 2:52pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there haven't been any precedents set in terms of compensation for 'The Stolen Generation'.
And it was my understanding that saying 'Sorry' did not include an open invitation for claims against the government.

ali was telling me last night she was watching some morning program, which said that because rudd was so broad in his apology, that you didn't actually have to be a member of the stolen generation to possibly make a claim in the future.

this is all ali's words though. i have no idea if this is true or not, and neither does she really. it was morning tele afterall...
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trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 2:54pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
compensation claims have been going on forevertimes...

From wikipedia.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generation#Legal_status_and_compensation

Quote
Bruce Trevorrow
    This short section requires expansion.

On 1 August 2007, in a decision in the Supreme Court of South Australia by Justice Thomas Gray, Bruce Trevorrow, a member of the Stolen Generation, was awarded $525,000 compensation ($450,000 for general damages and $75,000 for exemplary damages) after a 10-year court battle with the South Australian government.[57] The SA government has announced that it will pay the compensation awarded to Mr Trevorrow but has not yet indicated whether it will appeal the court's findings of law and fact.[58]

The West Australian newspaper reported Bruce Trevorrow's story as follows:
“    Mr Trevorrow was separated from his mother in December 1957 after he was admitted to Adelaide's Children's Hospital with gastroenteritis. More than six months later, his mother wrote to the state's Aboriginal Protection Board, which had fostered him out, asking when she could have her son back. "I am writing to ask if you would let me know how Bruce is and how long before I can have him back home," she wrote in July 1958. "I have not forgot I got a baby in there". The Court was told the board lied to her, writing her son was "making good progress" and that the doctors still needed him for treatment.[59]

PS Just because people are making compensation claims, doesn't mean that everyone is going to be awarded them.
Munkee Snaps

"Anything you can't get out of a bottle of vodka, you don't need."..........
-   Ava Gardner......
warped fairyPosts: 1,971
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 3:06pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
but were they paid by the federal or state government?

isn't this just a federally based thing?
~the grass might be greener but it's just as hard to mow ~
cleascJ.R.F.M.O
Posts: 1,899
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 3:16pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
PS Just because people are making compensation claims, doesn't mean that everyone is going to be awarded them.

but you must admit that there will be a major increase now. Even that story the other day about someone about to put in a claim to the VIC government and the 30 to 40 odd other claims still being prepared.
Jellious Rebellious
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ErikaPosts: 2,240
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 3:31pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
heres the first request for compensation... already!

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23217674-911,00.html

I think in a court of law, as soon as you admit you are sorry for something that you are being persecuted for (i.e. in a car accident situation) a judge takes that as you are admitting you have done something wrong. Im not a lawyer though so dont quote me 100% on that one.

Therefore Im not sure that there is much the Australian Government can do in regards to paying comp. They will have to pay out alot of money.  I kinda think the liberals knew this, and thats why they took a different stance on reconciliation. $$$$

You watch, there will be claim after claim now.

I believe that the Government needs to really work and spend alotof money on providing and maintaining a supportive infrastructure for the aboriginal community in order to make things right. Not just paying out big dollars willy nilly.

However  in the long term Im not sure how it will all end up. It could end up like the Native title claims where new legislation was created. Aboriginal people now have the right to claim land, however the Government just goes about finding ways around the system to not give it to them.
JayarPromoters
Posts: 1,150
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 4:02pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I think in a court of law, as soon as you admit you are sorry for something that you are being persecuted for (i.e. in a car accident situation) a judge takes that as you are admitting you have done something wrong. Im not a lawyer though so dont quote me 100% on that one.

Therefore Im not sure that there is much the Australian Government can do in regards to paying comp. They will have to pay out alot of money.  I kinda think the liberals knew this, and thats why they took a different stance on reconciliation. $$$$

You watch, there will be claim after claim now.

sorry, im going to call bullshit. its not so simple as an insurance liability claim... and this odious 'argument' was used continually by racist right-wing fucks as to why we should never have made an apology at all. i mean, its not like they *deserved* any kind of apology or recognition or anything is it?! sigh... fuck me everything comes down to cash for those fuckers, it shits me to tears that for some people, even decency has a price.




i don't think they should get individual compensation, imagine trying to work out who should get what and why?
but some sort of compenesation as a whole is due, maybe in a way of education or health or housing etc, which i think they are already looking at doing.

IMO, they shouldn't. But say that, people get compensation for bloody anything and everything these days.
So why should this be any different.

interesting eh?

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oliJust the
Posts: 1,961
Posted: 15 Feb 2008, 4:06pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I think the whole compensation issue should be taken on a case by case basis - and we shouldn't generalise and say that certain types are or aren't allowed.

Let the civil court system approach them the same way they'd take on any other civil proceedings. If you were involved in a case like this (or even one completely unrelated to this topic) you'd appreciate it if people did not make blanket judgements/statements about your case just because it fit into some convenient genre of events that happened over many decades.
NoddyPosts: 3,458
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 5:16pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
This whole apology day thing really pissed me off and was completely unnecessary.

Instead of apologising, there is an entire generation of aboriginal children at the moment who simply MUST be taken from their parents, but due to all this apology bullshit will never get the help they so desperately need. And in the meantime a generation of lawyers are going to get wealthy via unnecessary lawsuits due to this fucking apology.

Why should Australia be sorry for trying to help?
Testing the limits of the human heart since 1973.
Rob FrostPosts: 593
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 5:23pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Has any media organisation or representative of the Labour Government made comment about the number of Aboriginal children who thrived in foster care, and were looked after and educated?

As I understand it, the compensation claims have started. I look forward to handing over my money to a Government I didn't vote for for a reason I do not agree with.
Quote
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oliJust the
Posts: 1,961
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 5:32pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
This whole apology day thing really pissed me off and was completely unnecessary.

Instead of apologising, there is an entire generation of aboriginal children at the moment who simply MUST be taken from their parents, but due to all this apology bullshit will never get the help they so desperately need. And in the meantime a generation of lawyers are going to get wealthy via unnecessary lawsuits due to this fucking apology.

Why should Australia be sorry for trying to help?

Why must they be taken away? If anything their whole communities need to be helped (and by that I mean we need a new approach rather than taking away children or handing them cash like what has happened in the past) so that there is no reason for anyone (like yourself) to say that any children need to be taken away.

I agree that a whole bunch of lawsuits will probably make the wrong group of people rich but if they didn't get rich on this they'd find something else to get rich on...

By the way it wasn't 'Australia' being sorry, it was parliament. Some state governments and lots of other groups have already said 'sorry'. Of course some saw it as trying to help but there's no way anyone can look back now and say that everything that was done to Indigenous people helped. There was a policy which while not on paper essentially equalled what the UN sees as genocide - that is, the government was trying to breed out Aboriginality to get rid of the group of people all together.

Has any media organisation or representative of the Labour Government made comment about the number of Aboriginal children who thrived in foster care, and were looked after and educated?

Yes, that's the argument that has still been made regularly. If you haven't noticed it you can't be watching any of this to closely. By the way what good is it if you are 'looked after and educated' by some foster parents if you are living in a constant state of depression/uncertainty because you know you aren't with your real parents, and you don't even know who your family is. Sorry Rob but it honestly looks like you can't even grasp how difficult it must be for people who were taken from their parents and forced to grow up in a culture which was not compatible with or was foreign to what they were born with.

As I understand it, the compensation claims have started. I look forward to handing over my money to a Government I didn't vote for for a reason I do not agree with.

It doesn't matter which way you vote, a lot of your money is going to go on reasons you don't agree with. This is hardly a relevant argument in relation to parliament saying 'sorry' to Indigenous people.
NoddyPosts: 3,458
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 5:36pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Why must they be taken away?

For starters diseases like rabies & lice are common with aboriginal children. Then there is the sexual abuse which the majority of aboriginal children will be subjected to if they stay in these communities. That is more than enough reason to remove them from their parents and these communities.

It is more than obvious they are not safe with their parents. The only solution is to remove them from this danger. IMMEDIATELY!
Testing the limits of the human heart since 1973.
trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 5:40pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Sorry Rob but it honestly looks like you can't even grasp how difficult it must be for people who were taken from their parents and forced to grow up in a culture which was not compatible with or was foreign to what they were born with.


good point. also, teh stolen generation not only has to deal with not ever knowing who their real parents are (even if the real parents were guilty of abusing/neglecting em, it doesnt matter..every human being expresses a desire to know their roots, where they came from) then they are also dealing with a generation of shame wherein they were told their community was INCAPABLE of caring for them, whether or not it was grounded in truth (because it WAS a blanket policy pretty much!)

Munkee Snaps

"Anything you can't get out of a bottle of vodka, you don't need."..........
-   Ava Gardner......
NoddyPosts: 3,458
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 5:42pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
But their communities were incapable of caring for them. As has been proven in the years since then.
Testing the limits of the human heart since 1973.
oliJust the
Posts: 1,961
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 5:46pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Why must they be taken away?

For starters diseases like rabies & lice are common with aboriginal children. Then there is the sexual abuse which the majority of aboriginal children will be subjected to if they stay in these communities. That is more than enough reason to remove them from their parents and these communities.

It is more than obvious they are not safe with their parents. The only solution is to remove them from this danger. IMMEDIATELY!

Rabies? Are you sure? I don't think there's even been rabies in Australia.

Lice is a problem amongst people living in extreme poverty. Fix the poverty issue and the lice will go away (along with other hygiene related illness/medical issues).

Sexual abuse isn't an Aboriginal-specific problem, it's primarily caused by substance abuse (and poverty). I think there is more to it than just removing the children (again). We know that that was tried for generations didn't work. I'm not disagreeing that children need to be protected somehow from sexual abuse but there's no way removing them all is magically going to fix the problem.

But their communities were incapable of caring for them. As has been proven in the years since then.

They managed just fine before Europeans got here. In fact I dare say most of them lived a lot healthier lives than people in England at the time the English first came out here...
trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 5:50pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
true dat!

i think u meant, scabies noddy?

i believe too many australians generalise the problem. its not ALL aboriginal communities. a lot of indigneous townspeople are doing a WHOLE lot to change their communities, and find some sort of balance between living in a western world, as well as try to keep their traditional ways of life.

noone is condoning what happens in those families where children are being abused. just taking the kids away isnt going to solve anything in the long term, and there needs to be a better way of helping those kids as well as the adults in the communities. we KNOW that just taking the kids away didnt work that well the first time!

less corruption in the ATSIC style councils would be a nice start tho too, I am not saying that its all peachy clean and its us whiteys that are the problem icon_wink
Munkee Snaps

"Anything you can't get out of a bottle of vodka, you don't need."..........
-   Ava Gardner......
oliJust the
Posts: 1,961
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 5:54pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Yes I suspect he meant scabies as well now that you mention it Anna.

You're right that we probably all generalise way too much. Aboriginal communities overall are amazingly diverse. Referring to them all as one is in fact more absurd than referring to all Caucasians as one group (even though they're in dozens of countries speaking dozens of languages). Oh well...
NoddyPosts: 3,458
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:01pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
They managed just fine before Europeans got here. In fact I dare say most of them lived a lot healthier lives than people in England at the time the English first came out here...

Now, that is one argument that really shits me.

It has no say in this afaic. Europeans are not going to leave Australia and life isnt going to return to the way it was so it is something they as a race needs to deal with. Times change - this has always happened and will always continue to happen. If a culture cannot adjust to these changes then that culture will simply die out. Is that not how evolution works?
Testing the limits of the human heart since 1973.
oliJust the
Posts: 1,961
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:05pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Now, that is one argument that really shits me.

It has no say in this afaic. Europeans are not going to leave Australia and life isnt going to return to the way it was so it is something they as a race needs to deal with. Times change - this has always happened and will always continue to happen. If a culture cannot adjust to these changes then that culture will simply die out. Is that not how evolution works?

Of course Europeans aren't going to leave. I mentioned that in response to your post quoted below. By 'years since then' I thought you were referring to prior to European settlement. I understood your post to mean that we somehow still believe that Aboriginal people were not managing when we got here. Perhaps I misunderstood.

And yes times change, but us humans like breaking this evolution system don't we? We're the only ones deliberately helping the disadvantaged. That's a topic for another thread altogether but I don't think deliberately assisting a culture so it dies out faster through official policies is a good thing.

But their communities were incapable of caring for them. As has been proven in the years since then.
NoddyPosts: 3,458
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:08pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
By years since then, i mean't since the stolen generation. I think I worded it right.
Testing the limits of the human heart since 1973.
trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:08pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
forced assimilation?? dunno about that.

here is an excerpt from a blog about the legislation in the usa, on indigenous rights. it really is worth something thinking about, especially seeing as the native americans there went through a similar sort of 'stolen generations' history...

Quote
As I said, I’ll be writing about the Articles in the Declaration over the next few weeks to mull over the Articles and discuss why some provisions might have been included, but for now, let’s have a look at Article 8(1).

    “Indigenous peoples and individuals have the right not to be subjected to forced assimilation or destruction of their culture.”

Many indigenous people around the world have been subjected to what is referred to as forced assimilation, forced integration or cultural genocide. This has taken many forms. Article 8(1) states that indigenous peoples and individuals have the right not to be subjected to this.

Numerous colonizing populations enacted forced assimilation policies and they did this for, at least, the following reasons: Because they thought indigenous cultures, customs, religions and languages were inferior, and because if they could get indigenous people to assimilate into the dominant colonizing culture, they thought indigenous people would no longer care about or fight for their lands and resources, whichthe colonizing population wanted.

and there are just as many links from oz
Munkee Snaps

"Anything you can't get out of a bottle of vodka, you don't need."..........
-   Ava Gardner......
NoddyPosts: 3,458
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:10pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
On a slightly different note, I read somewhere (will try and find it) that the aboriginals were not actually the original inhabitants of Australia but it was a different race that was then wiped out by the aboriginals.

Does anyone know anything about this?
Testing the limits of the human heart since 1973.
oliJust the
Posts: 1,961
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:13pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I think I worded it right.

My bad.

On a slightly different note, I read somewhere (will try and find it) that the aboriginals were not actually the original inhabitants of Australia but it was a different race that was then wiped out by the aboriginals.

Does anyone know anything about this?

I have read about this theory as well. Times change - this has always happened and will always continue to happen. If a culture cannot adjust to these changes then that culture will simply die out. Is that not how evolution works?  teef





Rob FrostPosts: 593
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:14pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Sorry Rob but it honestly looks like you can't even grasp how difficult it must be for people who were taken from their parents and forced to grow up in a culture which was not compatible with or was foreign to what they were born with.

It doesn't matter which way you vote, a lot of your money is going to go on reasons you don't agree with. This is hardly a relevant argument in relation to parliament saying 'sorry' to Indigenous people.

You're 100% correct, I can't comprehend it. Very few people can, or ever will. So how does saying sorry make it better? Any apology would be an empty one.

Under Howard, I was fine with where my money was going. Now with Kyoto and Sorry, I am not so happy.

Rudd has only a small window of opportunity to get this right. So far, with interest rates rising unabated (the banks must have been rubbing their hands with Chesire grins when Swan became Treasurer) and Compo claims for 'sorry', I don't think he is off to a great start.
Quote
"...Ever thought of balancing out your reading of Green Left/Socialist Alliance Party's unsubstantiated conspiracy theory leaflets with some well studied Economic theory? The factors that effect price on everything else are the same that effect price on oil/petrol/gas, and these factors are not about to jump into some vortex of irrationality..."
NoddyPosts: 3,458
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:16pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
I have read about this theory as well. Times change - this has always happened and will always continue to happen. If a culture cannot adjust to these changes then that culture will simply die out. Is that not how evolution works?  teef

The reason I bring this up, is why are we giving the aboriginal race so many handouts, so much assistance and letting them get away with their land rights claims, when in reality they are probably not the original owners of this country and therefore have no right to receive such things.
Testing the limits of the human heart since 1973.
Rob FrostPosts: 593
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:17pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
On a slightly different note, I read somewhere (will try and find it) that the aboriginals were not actually the original inhabitants of Australia but it was a different race that was then wiped out by the aboriginals.

Does anyone know anything about this?

Civilisations have always been conquered by other civilisations. I am sure the Persians and Romans apologised to all the tribes, clans, villages, towns, cities and nations they conquered.
Quote
"...Ever thought of balancing out your reading of Green Left/Socialist Alliance Party's unsubstantiated conspiracy theory leaflets with some well studied Economic theory? The factors that effect price on everything else are the same that effect price on oil/petrol/gas, and these factors are not about to jump into some vortex of irrationality..."
oliJust the
Posts: 1,961
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:19pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
You're 100% correct, I can't comprehend it. Very few people can, or ever will. So how does saying sorry make it better? Any apology would be an empty one.

Under Howard, I was fine with where my money was going. Now with Kyoto and Sorry, I am not so happy.

Rudd has only a small window of opportunity to get this right. So far, with interest rates rising unabated (the banks must have been rubbing their hands with Chesire grins when Swan became Treasurer) and Compo claims for 'sorry', I don't think he is off to a great start.

Fair enough to agree that you can't comprehend it. But it's unfair to make a blanket statement about how very few people can. I don't think you can make a judgement like that. Considering how so many people saw the day and event as significant do you really think the apology was empty? I don't.

I'll leave the money thing aside because it's not so relevant to this thread.

Rudd is doing pretty well according to most people. You're in a small minority now if you think otherwise. Anyway I'll leave that to another thread as well.

The reason I bring this up, is why are we giving the aboriginal race so many handouts, so much assistance and letting them get away with their land rights claims, when in reality they are probably not the original owners of this country and therefore have no right to receive such things.

They don't get away with all their land rights claims. Have you actually done any study or research into this area? Or are you just regurgitating opinion letters from tabloid newspapers? Honestly...

We're assisting groups living in third world conditions because we'd do the same for any group regardless of their skin colour. We do still have a social welfare system after 11 years of Liberal rule after all.
Rob FrostPosts: 593
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:24pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Rudd is doing pretty well according to most people. You're in a small minority now if you think otherwise. Anyway I'll leave that to another thread as well.

The minority is not that small.

When you have a mortgage or two, you will understand where I am coming from.
Quote
"...Ever thought of balancing out your reading of Green Left/Socialist Alliance Party's unsubstantiated conspiracy theory leaflets with some well studied Economic theory? The factors that effect price on everything else are the same that effect price on oil/petrol/gas, and these factors are not about to jump into some vortex of irrationality..."
oliJust the
Posts: 1,961
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:31pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
The minority is not that small.

When you have a mortgage or two, you will understand where I am coming from.


Ah yes, because your interest rates weren't going to go up further under Howard were they! After all he promised they wouldn't go higher! Wake up to yourself Rob!  aargh

I don't have a mortgage (or two) but I know enough about economics and our political system to tell you that a) the prime minister doesn't control the reserve bank. b) the liberals did a bad job of long term economic planning and therefore didn't keep enough downward pressure on interest rates, and c) regardless of which way the last election went the rates would have gone up this year.
Rob FrostPosts: 593
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:38pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Ah yes, because your interest rates weren't going to go up further under Howard were they! After all he promised they wouldn't go higher! Wake up to yourself Rob!  aargh

I don't have a mortgage (or two) but I know enough about economics and our political system to tell you that a) the prime minister doesn't control the reserve bank. b) the liberals did a bad job of long term economic planning and therefore didn't keep enough downward pressure on interest rates, and c) regardless of which way the last election went the rates would have gone up this year.

I know they were going to go up, and I was certainly not foolish enough to believe Howard when he said he promised they wouldn't.

Im sad you vote Labour oli, you seem like such a smart guy
Quote
"...Ever thought of balancing out your reading of Green Left/Socialist Alliance Party's unsubstantiated conspiracy theory leaflets with some well studied Economic theory? The factors that effect price on everything else are the same that effect price on oil/petrol/gas, and these factors are not about to jump into some vortex of irrationality..."
oliJust the
Posts: 1,961
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:40pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Well I am glad you weren't that foolish. I didn't vote Labor and on that note let's get back on topic. Smiley
Rob FrostPosts: 593
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 6:42pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Well I am glad you weren't that foolish. I didn't vote Labor and on that note let's get back on topic. Smiley

I fucking knew it  biggrin
Quote
"...Ever thought of balancing out your reading of Green Left/Socialist Alliance Party's unsubstantiated conspiracy theory leaflets with some well studied Economic theory? The factors that effect price on everything else are the same that effect price on oil/petrol/gas, and these factors are not about to jump into some vortex of irrationality..."
JayarPromoters
Posts: 1,150
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 10:32pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
look lets be honest here, if we are going to be equal and help all children at risk, we should separate ALL family members who wear pink shirts or were born more than 10km from the CBD of any capital. Lets face it, any bogan born in the country, particularly elizabeth, gawler & the barossa, is incapable of raising a healthy family so for their own sake, put them in foster care.

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NoddyPosts: 3,458
Posted: 20 Feb 2008, 10:47pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Nice Jayar. You have nothing of interest to add so you choose to try and be clever and witty but end up coming across as a tosser as per usual.
Testing the limits of the human heart since 1973.
writaPosts: 400
Posted: 21 Feb 2008, 12:56amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
look lets be honest here, if we are going to be equal and help all children at risk, we should separate ALL family members who wear pink shirts or were born more than 10km from the CBD of any capital. Lets face it, any bogan born in the country, particularly elizabeth, gawler & the barossa, is incapable of raising a healthy family so for their own sake, put them in foster care.

im no bogan fool. do you see a wife basher top on me?
worst thing i have read all day. gawler, barossa ppl have risen better families than the majority of the ones i have seen been raised in the cdb. ie. 12 yr olds stealing cars whilst there mum is smacked out on junk. most of you ppl here have fucked up backgrounds...
in that i dont think the abo's should get a direct apology. what about all the pommy kids that got taken too??? has nothing to do if there black, white or purple. it happened, in the past, get over it and be fucked if any of them should get a pay out to spend on more goon. they get paid for not working in the first place.
im getting outta this thread before i get to fired up and say some random shit that wont even make sense.
still better with rudd anyway. Tongue
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NoddyPosts: 3,458
Posted: 21 Feb 2008, 1:09amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Don't pay any attention to him Jut.

It was Jayar having a pathetic dig at myself (Barossa) and Rob (pink shirt) for having a different opinion to him. He was trying in some rather poor way to throw some form of witty insult in my direction but instead has ended up embarrassing himself. As he has proven time and time again on these forums, he is incapable of having a decent discussion about anything without resorting to childish insults.

No point lowering yourself to his standards by getting fired up his remarks.
Testing the limits of the human heart since 1973.
Rob FrostPosts: 593
Posted: 21 Feb 2008, 7:36amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
look lets be honest here, if we are going to be equal and help all children at risk, we should separate ALL family members who wear pink shirts or were born more than 10km from the CBD of any capital. Lets face it, any bogan born in the country, particularly elizabeth, gawler & the barossa, is incapable of raising a healthy family so for their own sake, put them in foster care.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessement of all bogans outside the CBD. They should all be rounded up at the Clipsal and sent to a detention centre in the middle of SA, never to be heard from again except when they have the occasional hunger strike.

Can't say I agree about the pink shirts though.
Quote
"...Ever thought of balancing out your reading of Green Left/Socialist Alliance Party's unsubstantiated conspiracy theory leaflets with some well studied Economic theory? The factors that effect price on everything else are the same that effect price on oil/petrol/gas, and these factors are not about to jump into some vortex of irrationality..."
JayarPromoters
Posts: 1,150
Posted: 21 Feb 2008, 8:21amSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
Nice Jayar. You have nothing of interest to add so you choose to try and be clever and witty but end up coming across as a tosser as per usual.

now you know how people here take your rants. Smiley

seriously, try and tell me you wouldnt object if someone took your kids away based on something as abitrary as where you grew up, regardless of how you were as a parent. and if this happened and you never saw your kids again that you wouldnt be a tad fucked off at the people/institution responsible?
if you say no youre a fucking liar.

i actually thought that some of that shit below was just you baiting, but clearly not. is it really that hard for you to stop and imagine someone doing the same to you? lets hope that we dont have to test this out, there are a lot of over populated countries to our north...



jut you clown - did you actually think i was even vaguely serious??! half my fams are from the country...

LOEFAH - DMZ (UK) - Thurs Aug 7th @ Rhino room

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REDLINE DUBSTARS : DUBSTEP MIX
BREAKS & ELECTRO TUNES FOR SALE THREAD
ReBECcaBec
Posts: 981
Posted: 21 Feb 2008, 1:56pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
 laugh

*entertainment plus* !!

Ive exhausted myself in this argument, i have nothing constructive to add *exits thread*  Smiley
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ErikaPosts: 2,240
Posted: 21 Feb 2008, 2:28pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!
look lets be honest here, if we are going to be equal and help all children at risk, we should separate ALL family members who wear pink shirts or were born more than 10km from the CBD of any capital. Lets face it, any bogan born in the country, particularly elizabeth, gawler & the barossa, is incapable of raising a healthy family so for their own sake, put them in foster care.

add in there People from a background of ginger minge!

 teef
trashy_chicaTrash it up!
Posts: 3,721
Posted: 23 Feb 2008, 1:20pmSubject: Re: National Apology Day!!

Old guard in Rudd's path - Mundine

THE Rudd Government must stare down the indigenous service provider industry that profits from entrenched Aboriginal disadvantage or risk dooming the federal intervention into Northern Territory communities, former Labor president Warren Mundine has warned. Mr Mundine urged his party to "have courage" in challenging the "old guard" whose political power base lay within remote Aboriginal communities and who opposed aspects of the intervention. He warned that a welfare industry had built up around Aboriginal people that could derail Kevin Rudd's pledge to "close the gap" between indigenous and non-indigenous life expectancy rates.

"What we have created in Australia is an indigenous industry that lives off people's poverty and misery," Mr Mundine said. "It's destroyed incentives. There's a whole culture that developed over a period of time of dependency.
He said some Labor powerbrokers in remote Australia, such as Defence Science and Personnel Minister Warren Snowdon, had been key players in the land rights political movement and were pushing for the party to return to the "status quo" prior to the intervention. "There's no doubt there's a split in the party about what needs to be done," Mr Mundine said. "And we have people whoare harping back to keeping the status quo prior to the intervention."

His comments came as Reconciliation Australia director Fred Chaney labelled remote Australia a "failed state" with little electoral clout that had been abandoned by federal, state and territory governments. "Government have essentially stepped outside and left these communities to their own devices," Mr Chaney said. "This intervention has had to make it up as it goes along. There is a serious gap in governance of the governments themselves." Echoing the ideas presented in a book co-written by Mike Dillon, now one of Indigenous Affairs Minister Jenny Macklin's closest advisers, Mr Chaney said governmental breakdown was not confined to Aboriginal communities. He said it also affected mining towns, such as those in the Pilbara, which brought in "vast tax revenues which are principally spent elsewhere".

"A failed state - I think it is a fair description," Mr Chaney said. "Just as we needed to assist in the Solomon Islands, sending in the army, we have had to put an army in our own Territory because of the failure of civil governance." The Northern Territory Government this week introduced legislation to reform disparate local government authorities into a series of "super-shires", but the reforms that were crafted by Australia's father of reconciliation, Pat Dodson, were watered down at the last minute when the Government exempted the Top End shire, dominated by white pastoralists, from the super-shire structure. The exemption prompted the resignation of NT local government minister Elliot McAdam.

Visiting the northwest NSW town of Walgett yesterday, the Prime Minister said the Government had begun formulating a plan to attack duplication and infighting among Aboriginal service providers and government agencies by creating local boards for remote indigenous communities that would be responsible for ground-level service delivery. Speaking on his first visit to an outback indigenous community as Prime Minister, Mr Rudd said he was considering bringing together service providers and local, state and federal government agencies to co-ordinate indigenous service delivery on a community-by-community basis. "Maybe it's time for us to look at much more of a whole-of-local-community focus whereby you have around the one table not just all the representatives of organisations and groups but the various levels of government," he said. But Mr Mundine said the "indigenous industry" would prove difficult to reform. "There's a whole culture that's developed over a period of time of dependence," he said. "I have never seen a place in the world where they've got more governance of people.

"We've got to get bureaucrats out of the way. Let's stop spending money on bureaucrats and get money on to the ground." Mr Mundine's comments come after former indigenous affairs minister Mal Brough told a dinner for Quadrant magazine in Sydney last week that political correctness hampered many of the people working within the indigenous sector who wanted to bring about change. Former Liberal Party president Shane Stone warned yesterday that if the intervention failed to tackle welfare dependency then "the intervention will be intervention in name only".

One of Alice Springs's most vocal agitators against the intervention, the Tangentyere Town Council's Barbara Shaw, said indigenous people wanted greater levels of service to remote communities and called on her local member, Mr Snowdon, to support the community's "intervention rollback working group". "We told (Mr Snowdon) Aboriginal people put you where you are, you have got to start advocating for Aboriginal people," she said. Mr Snowdon was in the Solomon Islands and could not be contacted.

Northern Territory Deputy Chief Minister Marion Scrymgour, who was forced to back away from comments last year that the intervention was a "vicious new McCarthyism", backed the intervention under federal Labor but rejected Mr Mundine's comments on the welfare industry. "We welcome the new approach of Kevin Rudd and Jenny Macklin, it's a dramatically different approach based on inclusion, respect and co-operation, which will get results," she said.

Mr Rudd said that governance was one of two key messages from his five-hour visit to Walgett. The other was creating a flexible approach to housing that would allow private ownership in one community and communal title in another. With a majority of indigenous residents, Walgett is one of the most disadvantaged communities in the state. Mr Rudd toured two Aboriginal reserves and was taken to task by Ann Dennis about the level of duplication and lack of communication by service providers. She said funding was not the problem. "It's the co-ordination and planning, not the money coming in," she said.

Mr Rudd said he was committed to ending a one-size-fits-all approach. "It may be that in the 300 to 400 remote indigenous communities in Australia that we'll end up with lots of different housing models from full private ownership, through to leasehold through to community ownership," he said. He asked Ms Dennis if they wanted private ownership of homes, and she said the community did.
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